Midrash concerning Peter

[Wandering Monk]

I think the principal message being sent by this d'rash is this: Judaism and Christianity need to be separated. This would be consistent with church edicts from around the fifth century. Maybe Jewish leaders felt the same way.

 

[dybmh]

I think the principal message being sent by this d'rash is this: Judaism and Christianity need to be separated. This would be consistent with church edicts from around the fifth century. Maybe Jewish leaders felt the same way.

It reflects the sentiment of the author and those who chose to believe it.

 

[halbhh]

Look at just the first sentence again:

the argument between the Christians and the Jews grew stronger, for when a Christian saw a Jew he killed him, and the problem grew worse over the course of the next 30 years.

Anyone see the huge impossibility right there in the beginning?

How could Christians numbering just thousands inside a nation of millions of Jews get away with this -- "when a Christian saw a Jew he killed him" ?

Well, of course, they could not. It's impossible. It would have led to the quick end of the Christians.

So, we can see this then starts off with a falsehood right in the first sentence.

 

[dybmh]

Plot twist:

What if Peter and Jesus actually were co-conspirators. Maybe Peter was secretly helping Jesus "from the inside" by obtaining and passing him the divine name from inside the temple? And this is just an elaborate cover story in case Peter's body was discovered with the divine name engraved in his own flesh... ( ewwww ).

As an additional unintended side effect, tho, the cover-up would also hide any other conspirators ( if there were any ) within the Sanhedrin.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Look at just the first sentence again:



Anyone see the huge impossibility right there in the beginning?

How could Christians numbering just thousands inside a nation of millions of Jews get away with this -- "when a Christian saw a Jew he killed him" ?

Well, of course, they could not. It's impossible. It would have led to the quick end of the Christians.

So, we can see this then starts off with a falsehood right in the first sentence.

The story indicates the Temple was still standing if Peter went into the Hekal. Were the Romans unable to deal with the violent Christians? Really?

 

[Harel13]

Another thing this looks like is that it looks like a dream. Lets suppose that its purposely written to be like a dream. Could be its someone's dream or could be its an attempt to create a dream from partial knowledge and try to find unknowns by using dream interpretation. The writer might be thinking "Why not try to use dreams to resolve questions and fears?" It doesn't involve any proscribed activities that I know of. Dreams don't have to make sense and yet may sometimes give relief to the dreamer. It could be an attempt to use dreaming as a technology to resolve some questions.

Whose dream would it be? The midrash's author? What would it then represent?

 

[Harel13]

Thank you for pointing this out. The story continues that Shimon Kippah uses the name to perform specific miracles. Not just any miracles, but the same miracles as Jesus.

Does this imply that Jesus knew and used the name?

I looked up stories on two other 1st century miracle workers, and neither used the name. But their miracles were significantly less miraculous. This suggests that Jesus knew the name and used the name.

So ... if the pronunciation is forgotten when a person leaves the temple... how did Jesus get the name out of the heichal?

( assuming all this is true, and with all due respect to Christians/Catholics/Atheists/etc )

That's a really good question.

 

[Harel13]

The story indicates the Temple was still standing if Peter went into the Hekal. Were the Romans unable to deal with the violent Christians? Really?

Seems there are a number of things about the story that don't quite add up.

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 , does the midrash give the source of the story? a Rabbi?

Maybe (I recall that before every midrash in the collection there was a short intro), I'll check when I'll be near the book (might take a couple of days, though).

 

[Tumah]

So ... if the pronunciation is forgotten when a person leaves the temple... how did Jesus get the name out of the heichal?

If I recall, this actually comes from one of the editions of "Toldoth Yeshu" and he does so by carving it into his leg.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Whose dream would it be? The midrash's author? What would it then represent?

I am thinking of it as an attempt to assemble many different thoughts together. I'm not thinking of it as a dream necessarily but as something like a dream put down on paper. Suppose you have a lot of unknowns and you just want to try to use your subconscious to associate them. Suppose you want to Crunch them all into your mind and see what pops out.

 

[Harel13]

I am thinking of it as an attempt to assemble many different thoughts together. I'm not thinking of it as a dream necessarily but as something like a dream put down on paper. Suppose you have a lot of unknowns and you just want to try to use your subconscious to associate them. Suppose you want to Crunch them all into your mind and see what pops out.

So you're saying the author had a lot of ideas about Christianity and Peter (or maybe just Christianity), and this is what came out? Interesting.

 

[Terry Sampson]

@Harel13
I've been wondering about the possible conflation of Shimons. What's the maximum possible? and who are they?

 

[Rival]

I've been wondering about the possible conflation of Shimons. What's the maximum possible? and who are they?

There may be infinite Shimonim...

Who knows.

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13
I've been wondering about the possible conflation of Shimons. What's the maximum possible? and who are they?

Some people hold that opinion. As @Rival said, it could be any number of people.

Someone I think mentioned on the thread the connection to a fast called the fast of the 9th of Tevet (no longer observed). There are a number of reasons for the fast, one of them is that a person called "Shimon" died on that day saving the Jews, so there's a disagreement who this is: Either it's Simon Peter, or someone named Shimon Bar Giyora (one of the leaders of the Rebellion) or someone named Shimon Kalphus (unclear who he was, other than apparently giving his life to save the Jews).

 

[Rival]

Some people hold that opinion. As @Rival said, it could be any number of people.

Someone I think mentioned on the thread the connection to a fast called the fast of the 9th of Tevet (no longer observed). There are a number of reasons for the fast, one of them is that a person called "Shimon" died on that day saving the Jews, so there's a disagreement who this is: Either it's Simon Peter, or someone named Shimon Bar Giyora (one of the leaders of the Rebellion) or someone named Shimon Kalphus (unclear who he was, other than apparently giving his life to save the Jews).

It's rather sad such a martyr has been forgotten.

 

[Harel13]

It's rather sad such a martyr has been forgotten.

On the other hand, some people appear to hold that Simon Peter and Shimon Kalphus are one and the same...so: Is he a (mostly) misunderstood martyr? Who knows?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Some people hold that opinion. As @Rival said, it could be any number of people.

Someone I think mentioned on the thread the connection to a fast called the fast of the 9th of Tevet (no longer observed). There are a number of reasons for the fast, one of them is that a person called "Shimon" died on that day saving the Jews, so there's a disagreement who this is: Either it's Simon Peter, or someone named Shimon Bar Giyora (one of the leaders of the Rebellion) or someone named Shimon Kalphus (unclear who he was, other than apparently giving his life to save the Jews).

Kalphus could be a form of Cleophas.

"After the martyrdom of James, it was unanimously decided that Simeon, son of Clopas, was worthy to occupy the see of Jerusalem. He was, it is said, a cousin of the Saviour." Hegesippus noted that Clopas was a brother of Joseph (Eusebius, Hist. eccl., III, 11)

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 , does the midrash give the source of the story? a Rabbi?

This is what's written in the foreword (translated by myself):

"The agadatta (midrash) of Shimon Kippa is an agadda about the head of the apostles of Jesus the Christian who's known as Peter which is Greek for rock/boulder as is Kippa in Aramaic. And there's a tradition of the masses that this Shimon had good intentions, to separate the Jewish-Christians from the Jews a complete separation so they shall not mix together as they were in the early days of Christianity. And he's accredited with several piyutim (hymns) and a piyut of the work of Yom Kippur "atah konanta b'rov chessed", and it is stated about him in Sefer Chassidim "and even for a righteous though they follow him mistakenly such as Shimon Kippa". Shmuel David Luzzatto in his foreword to the Machzor (prayer book) of the (Jews of) Rome writes: "And here I was greatly surprised and horrified these 24 years when I saw in the Machzor Vitri a handwriting of the answer of Rabbeinu Tam, it's written there that Shimon Kippa authored the Yom Kippur hymn "Eten Tehilla", and my shock subsided when I discovered in the handwriting of this Machzor the "Eten Tehilla". Shimon Kippa who's called St. Pierro of Rome wrote this praise after he straightened out the beliefs of the Christians, and placed himself in the tower of Rome for all his days with weak bread and water, and sent them this praise (=the hymn) so they shall know that he never believed in Jesus but he meant to quiet those that made trouble in Israel. Until here is written, and then I understood that the words of Rabbeinu Tam are based on a false rumor that spread in Israel in ancient times, in the times of trouble and destruction, out of good intentions to empower the faith of the masses, when they shall hear that the head of the apostles write hymns in praise of the Israeli faith, and that his intention in the creation of a new faith was only for God and the good of Israel.""

So, the origin of the midrash is unclear.