Milgram Experiment

[rojse]

What would that "one crucial variable" be, Stephen?

How far removed the teacher was from the learner - not just distance, but how far their actions were removed from the generation of the electric current.

I believe compliance went up to 90% when the teacher ordered someone else to apply the current, but might be wrong with that.

 

[rojse]

I think it's important. And worthless. If a majority of people don't even know what the Milgram Experiment is then it's worthless. Or if a majority of people can't look at themselves in the mirror long enough to see if they are a Nazi, a brutal dictator, or an obedient follower and try to figure out if they are comfortable with that or if they want to change themselves then it's worthless, right? I mean, most people I talk to say they don't even know what the hell the Milgram Experiment is. And it SEEMS like most people won't look at their ugly side. What's a girl to do?

Popularity is not indicative of worth - Dan Brown's book "The Da Vinci Code" is the best-selling fiction book ever, but has lacklustre writing, flat characters, and is near-void of ideas.

Milgram's experiment has worth because it shows how people can be made to do things that they would never do otherwise, as you have pointed out. That it is not known among the general public does not make it worthless.

Oh, hell yeah. Eh.. Well, give me a target. Are you Black, Arab, Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Redneck, or what? I can't shock the hell outta just anyone. I need a target! You know, I'm not some peon who will do your bidding for no good reason. Give me a target that society has told me to hate and I'll gladly fry the guy/gal.

Anyone see where I'm going with this?

Is anyone besides myself completely befuddled as to where this came from? The learner was a old white person, not exactly a minority group targeted for persecution. I don't think this experiment should provoke this sort of response.

 

[lilithu]

Popularity is not indicative of worth - Dan Brown's book "The Da Vinci Code" is the best-selling fiction book ever, but has lacklustre writing, flat characters, and is near-void of ideas.

Milgram's experiment has worth because it shows how people can be made to do things that they would never do otherwise, as you have pointed out. That it is not known among the general public does not make it worthless.

I liked The Da Vinci Code! It wasn't the best written thing in the world but entertaining enough, and the idea that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and that the "Holy Grail" is a person was interesting enough to carry a book, imo. (Otoh, I do not understand why so many people tried to read it as non-fiction.)

I think his point was long the lines of "If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?

He isn't really saying that it's worthless except that people don't know about it, OR do not think that it applies to them. ie, he was using provocative language, hyperbole, in order to make his point.

Is anyone besides myself completely befuddled as to where this came from? The learner was a old white person, not exactly a minority group targeted for persecution. I don't think this experiment should provoke this sort of response.

Yeah, I thought that was out of left-field too. Hey, I am very sensitive to racial/ethnic/religious biases in our culture - some in these forums would say I'm too sensitive - but the Milgrim experiments had nothing to do with that. The "victim" being electrocuted was a white male. So far as I know most if not all of the participants were white, and religious affiliation was never stated.

 

[rojse]

I liked The Da Vinci Code! It wasn't the best written thing in the world but entertaining enough, and the idea that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and that the "Holy Grail" is a person was interesting enough to carry a book, imo. (Otoh, I do not understand why so many people tried to read it as non-fiction.)

There were a grand total of two good ideas in the Da Vinci Code - one was that Mary had Jesus's child, the other was that Disney has covert religious images in it. The rest of it was a one-man-unravelling-a-conspiracy scenario, which has been done far better by many other writers. Two good ideas are not enough for a six-hundred page book, when the characters are two-dimensional, the writing lacklustre, and the big idea in the novel was revealed in the first two chapters.

 

[Mojopalin]

Popularity is not indicative of worth - Dan Brown's book "The Da Vinci Code" is the best-selling fiction book ever, but has lacklustre writing, flat characters, and is near-void of ideas.

Milgram's experiment has worth because it shows how people can be made to do things that they would never do otherwise, as you have pointed out. That it is not known among the general public does not make it worthless.

Society's overall reaction or knowledge of Milgram's Experiment is worthless. I never said the substance was worthless.

Is anyone besides myself completely befuddled as to where this came from? The learner was a old white person, not exactly a minority group targeted for persecution. I don't think this experiment should provoke this sort of response.

Why? Again, I simply took Milgram's Experiment and applied it to modern society. And I think it applies. First of all, modern society is more sophisticated than it was in 1963. Many people today wouldn't fall for Milgram's Experient. Second, where I'm from any human with dark skin and a middle eastern name is generally branded a "terrorist" due to conditioning by our authority figures. Why not add a dose of spice to the experiment with race and religion? That's what I was getting at. I guess I could discuss the subject in textbook form like you'd prefer. But I don't wanna. I shouldn't have to.

 

[rojse]

...Modern society is more sophisticated than it was in 1963. Many people today wouldn't fall for Milgram's Experient.

You think so?

A partial replication of the Milgram experiment was conducted by Jerry M. Burger in 2006 and broadcast on the Primetime series Basic Instincts. Burger noted that, "current standards for the ethical treatment of participants clearly place Milgram’s studies out of bounds". He was able to receive approval from the institutional review board by modifying several of the experimental protocols.[16] Burger found obedience rates virtually identical to what Milgram found in 1961-1962. In addition, half the replication participants were women, and their rate of obedience was virtually identical to that of the men participants.

Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mojopalin]

A partial replication of the Milgram experiment was conducted by Jerry M. Burger in 2006 and broadcast on the Primetime series Basic Instincts. Burger noted that, "current standards for the ethical treatment of participants clearly place Milgram’s studies out of bounds". He was able to receive approval from the institutional review board by modifying several of the experimental protocols.[16] Burger found obedience rates virtually identical to what Milgram found in 1961-1962. In addition, half the replication participants were women, and their rate of obedience was virtually identical to that of the men participants.

Interesting. Doesn't that kinda prove my first point?

 

[rojse]

Interesting. Doesn't that kinda prove my first point?

Not when:

First of all, modern society is more sophisticated than it was in 1963.

 

[Mojopalin]

Not when:

First of all, modern society is more sophisticated than it was in 1963.

Well, sure. Good point. But I was talking about the other point I made:

"Society's overall reaction or knowledge of Milgram's Experiment is worthless." I feel like these experiments are done so we humans can learn and grow from them, so society actually becomes more sophisticated than it was forty years ago. I mean, forty years? Forty years! And people are still this stupid and blind? It's unbelievable.

 

[Mojopalin]

Forty years! And people are still this stupid and blind? It's unbelievable.

Not only blind and stupid. But obedient to the point where they know they're hurting another individual? It's one thing to actually take pleasure in causing others pain. That, too me, is admirable in the most degenerate sense -- you know, the sickest, filthiest part of human nature. At least those people know who they are. But who is the so-called "decent" person who doesn't enjoy inflicting pain and yet does it because they are told to? That seems like mental retardation.

 

[rojse]

But who is the so-called "decent" person who doesn't enjoy inflicting pain and yet does it because they are told to? That seems like mental retardation.

Considering that sixty-five percent of the people in the experiments, in both the 1960's and 2000, continued with the experiment to the maximum voltage, to simply call the people who do so "mental retards" ignore a widespread behvaorial phenomena that should be of some interest to people who are interested in behavorial phenomena.

 

[lilithu]

Considering that sixty-five percent of the people in the experiments, in both the 1960's and 2000, continued with the experiment to the maximum voltage, to simply call the people who do so "mental retards" ignore a widespread behvaorial phenomena that should be of some interest to people who are interested in behavorial phenomena.

That's putting it kindly. I'd say that calling them "mental retards" shows a lack of depth in one's own self-understanding AND a lack of sensitivity towards those who are intellectually challenged.

 

[Mojopalin]

Considering that sixty-five percent of the people in the experiments, in both the 1960's and 2000, continued with the experiment to the maximum voltage, to simply call the people who do so "mental retards" ignore a widespread behvaorial phenomena that should be of some interest to people who are interested in behavorial phenomena.

It is interesting.

It is very interesting to know that so many intellectuals can gather around and discuss behavioral phenomenas but do absolutely nothing to solve the problem. Or even care to talk about the fact that it is a problem, which it is. Learn from mistakes of the past? Pish-posh! It's way too interesting to discuss how hilariously obedient we truly are.

How bout your next topic be about the penile plethysmograph? How interesting would it be to discuss the behavioral phenomena of latent pedophiles? Is pedophilia a problem that needs solving? No. It's an interesting behavioral phenomena we study for the hell of it.

I'm not ignoring the "behavioral phenomena". I'm saying we should all recognize that it is a huge, HUGE problem. We should learn from experiments that Milgram and Zimbardo have done.

 

[Mojopalin]

That's putting it kindly. I'd say that calling them "mental retards" shows a lack of depth in one's own self-understanding AND a lack of sensitivity towards those who are intellectually challenged.

Ouch. Explain the first part of your arm-chair analysis. I'm curious because it's extremely easy and petty to get hung up on "mental retards" instead of trying to actually understand where I'm coming from or what I'm talking about.

And I'm going to assume the second part of that sentence is sarcasm.

 

[Mojopalin]

By the way, I never said the Milgram subjects were "mental retards". I said, "That seems like mental retardation". And in complete context both of your replies don't make any sense. It's like you're purposely avoiding my major concerns.

 

[rojse]

It is interesting.

It is very interesting to know that so many intellectuals can gather around and discuss behavioral phenomenas but do absolutely nothing to solve the problem. Or even care to talk about the fact that it is a problem, which it is. Learn from mistakes of the past? Pish-posh! It's way too interesting to discuss how hilariously obedient we truly are.

I love all of the strawmen you have created to aid you in your argument. I hope they don't fall over with a slight breeze.

How bout your next topic be about the penile plethysmograph? How interesting would it be to discuss the behavioral phenomena of latent pedophiles? Is pedophilia a problem that needs solving? No. It's an interesting behavioral phenomena we study for the hell of it.

I'm not ignoring the "behavioral phenomena". I'm saying we should all recognize that it is a huge, HUGE problem. We should learn from experiments that Milgram and Zimbardo have done.

I agree with you that it is a problem. I disagree with you comparing such people to mental retards, and I certainly disagree with you labelling the posters and myself on here discussing a problem like this as being intellectuals who do not care about solving real-world problems, and saying that we are laughing at people who went through with these experiments. I remember first hearing about this, and I was shocked at the results, and wanted to hear from others on here about their opinions.

If you wish to talk more civily about the subject, then I'll go into a more in-depth response. Otherwise, I am just wasting my time.

 

[lilithu]

Ouch. Explain the first part of your arm-chair analysis. I'm curious because it's extremely easy and petty to get hung up on "mental retards" instead of trying to actually understand where I'm coming from or what I'm talking about.

And I'm going to assume the second part of that sentence is sarcasm.

Um... nope you would be wrong in your assumption. The fact that you used that term and continue to use that term and seem to have no understanding as to why someone would object to you using that term shows exactly where you're coming from.
1. You think that you are somehow intellectually and morally superior to those who complied.
2. You link intellect with morality as if they go together, which I must say is stupid.

 

[Mojopalin]

I love all of the strawmen you have created to aid you in your argument. I hope they don't fall over with a slight breeze.

A simple technique to prove an overall point.

I agree with you that it is a problem. I disagree with you comparing such people to mental retards, and I certainly disagree with you labelling the posters and myself on here discussing a problem like this as being intellectuals who do not care about solving real-world problems, and saying that we are laughing at people who went through with these experiments. I remember first hearing about this, and I was shocked at the results, and wanted to hear from others on here about their opinions.

If you wish to talk more civily about the subject, then I'll go into a more in-depth response. Otherwise, I am just wasting my time.

Never called them "mental retards". I said it seems like "mental retardation", which your hang up on those words seemed too me like you didn't even want to understand, which goes back to my theory that you are just some intellectual who would rather laugh at the individuals who took part in the experiment rather than understand the problem. Even if I called them "mental retards" it wouldn't have mattered. I don't care. How do we solve the problem? Why are so many people blindly obedient in the first place? Is it ultimately for self preservation? Is it instinctual? Is it taught? Is it society? Media?

 

[Willamena]

It is interesting.

It is very interesting to know that so many intellectuals can gather around and discuss behavioral phenomenas but do absolutely nothing to solve the problem. Or even care to talk about the fact that it is a problem, which it is.


I'm not ignoring the "behavioral phenomena". I'm saying we should all recognize that it is a huge, HUGE problem. We should learn from experiments that Milgram and Zimbardo have done.

Why is it a problem?

 

[Mojopalin]

Um... nope you would be wrong in your assumption. The fact that you used that term and continue to use that term and seem to have no understanding as to why someone would object to you using that term shows exactly where you're coming from.

Is that supposed to be funny?

1. You think that you are somehow intellectually and morally superior to those who complied.
2. You link intellect with morality as if they go together, which I must say is stupid.

Whatever, lady. You have no idea how sick, stupid and degenerate I am. One of my few saving graces is that I am not so blindly and ridiculously obedient. Plus, I took the time to read your posts. Could you please do the same? I continue using the term "mental retards"? Seriously?

Relation Between Morality and ... - Google Book Search