Minimum Wage

[tytlyf]

Raising the MW has these benefits:

-Boost the economy
-More jobs
-Less crime
-Less poverty
-Less drug use

 

[Koldo]

No. My point is the employers choice is relevant. For example one can hire an overqualified applicant betting on the individual being better worker than one with a blink or small work and education history. So the min wage in that case isn't helping the people it is aimed at namely those with no career prospects. This is what happens when government is assigning value to labour by only looking at the cost of various products often outside a local scope nor the labour.

If a lot of overqualified individuals are working for minimum wage in any given field, assuming the minimum wage is not extremely high, then no new person should be doing those jobs. It is a recipe for disaster.

The costs of living vary from city to city, state to state. Those can involve zoning laws, development, etc. All controlled by government thus part of the very problem. Those difference inflate and conflate the core basis for min wage.

Absolutely! Which is why I don't like the idea of a federal minimum wage that is equal to all cities.

I think we agree on this type of job. I reject the idea that some service jobs like fast food require a wage to meet a standard of living. These jobs are stepping stones not a career. In some cases I see min wage as subsidizing failure by force of government upon the employer/owner.

I have no qualms with it being a stepping stone. The only problem is: how do we ensure that it is an actual stepping stone rather than a dead end ? I can think of a few solutions but I am interested in what you might have in mind.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? That would be awfully stupid.
I never remotely heard anyone say that.

Stick around, it may even show up in this thread. They tend to think all the poor need to do for more hours at work is worker harder and ask for them. As far as I can tell, they tend to be of a mentality of "if I can do it anyone can do" and often promote hard work and working harder as a golden ticket to getting more. I doubt they have much experience with places like rural Indiana where opportunities are few and the wages low.

 

[Audie]

Stick around, it may even show up in this thread. They tend to think all the poor need to do for more hours at work is worker harder and ask for them. As far as I can tell, they tend to be of a mentality of "if I can do it anyone can do" and often promote hard work and working harder as a golden ticket to getting more. I doubt they have much experience with places like rural Indiana where opportunities are few and the wages low.

Please notify me as soon as it happens.
Betcha 66 or 77 shiny cyperpoints that it wont happen.

 

[Wandering Monk]

But you support remaing in the EU, which allows UK businesses the right to import cheep labourers

 

[Darkforbid]

View attachment 31306

How do you play no deal blackjack?

 

[Shad]

If a lot of overqualified individuals are working for minimum wage in any given field, assuming the minimum wage is not extremely high, then no new person should be doing those jobs. It is a recipe for disaster.

The pool is far more limited. It would just become a hiring practice norm in my view.

Absolutely! Which is why I don't like the idea of a federal minimum wage that is equal to all cities.

Yup. Government helped create this mess but wants other people to pay for government mistakes.

I have no qualms with it being a stepping stone. The only problem is: how do we ensure that it is an actual stepping stone rather than a dead end ? I can think of a few solutions but I am interested in what you might have in mind.

You can't as individual choice wins out. There is no solution. Government can provide help for those willing say via grants for training education but there will always be some that can not be helped. Some jobs never provide a skill set for a career path nor do all companies have the capability to provide such jobs in house. Government can not magically make those career paths. Service industries vs trade skill or learned labour for example. The later has mobility while the former doesn't.

 

[Riders]

The main arguments I have heard against the minimum or living wage are that it will lose workers their jobs because their employers won't be able to afford to keep them on, and that it will damage businesses if they don't have access to sufficiently cheap labour.

From what I suppose you might call a moral perspective, this seems to be investing more value in the interests of the investor than of the worker - why should an employer be permitted to give people less money than will provide for their basic welfare, and keep them beholden by handing them some small scraps out of the profit of the business, just so they can have the luxury of having their own business?

A business has no moral right to exist, from my perspective, if it can't observe basic human rights when it comes to its workers, which is to say provide for the material (and hopefully mental!) welfare of its workers.

When I worked in fast food and minimum wage went up to 6 bucks an hour, or maybe it was 5(Im old), sense they had a high turn over rate of employment, they put everyone the old minimum wage for the first 3 months then changed after they made it for the first 3.

 

[Shaul]

Many opponents tend to think it is possible for anyone and everyone to get a better paying job whenever they want, which isn't based in reality. Those who can't, regardless the reason, should not be tossed to the mercy of whatever an employer is willing to pay.

Such fatalism. I reject your premise. Everyone is responsible for themselves and the choices they make. Slavery is illegal. Every job is held by choice.

 

[Koldo]

The pool is far more limited. It would just become a hiring practice norm in my view.

I am not quite sure on what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

You can't as individual choice wins out. There is no solution. Government can provide help for those willing say via grants for training education but there will always be some that can not be helped. Some jobs never provide a skill set for a career path nor do all companies have the capability to provide such jobs in house. Government can not magically make those career paths. Service industries vs trade skill or learned labour for example. The later has mobility while the former doesn't.

There will always be people that can't be helped indeed but I think that we, as a society, should seek public policies that try to minimize how big this group is.

If there is no career job for any given low paying job then we can try to create a path by allowing those people to have affordable access to further education. I think that is essentially what you have said, isn't it ?

 

[Koldo]

Such fatalism. I reject your premise. Everyone is responsible for themselves and the choices they make. Slavery is illegal. Every job is held by choice.

Erm... Not quite right, nor that much wrong either though. Unless you have a lot of resources or if you happen to have someone paying for your bills, you got to work somewhere. And depending on your circumstances that might mean you will have to work on terrible jobs. It is not like you can be much of a picker when you are scrapping the barrel.

 

[Shaul]

Erm... Not quite right, nor that much wrong either though. Unless you have a lot of resources or if you happen to have someone paying for your bills, you got to work somewhere. And depending on your circumstances that might mean you will have to work on terrible jobs. It is not like you can be much of a picker when you are scrapping the barrel.

In other words, some people have tougher choices to make than others. I never said otherwise.

 

[Koldo]

In other words, some people have tougher choices to make than others. I never said otherwise.

You have said: "Every job is held by choice". But that's not completely accurate: sometimes it is either get ( and keep ) that one job or say welcome to misery. That's not much of a choice at all.

 

[Shad]

I am not quite sure on what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

Unemployment rates in general dictate who is in the pool and how large that pool is. A low rate typically means those with no skill sets and/or education compromise the most of the hiring pool. Higher rates will include those with skill sets and/or education which are not specializations to a greater level.

There will always be people that can't be helped indeed but I think that we, as a society, should seek public policies that try to minimize how big this group is.

Sure. However there is a point where government can cut it's losses at an individual level. I say government as society need not operate through the channels of government for everything.

If there is no career job for any given low paying job then we can try to create a path by allowing those people to have affordable access to further education. I think that is essentially what you have said, isn't it ?

Yes. Offer grants for low cost short period study paths which can teach skill sets. Construct for example.

 

[SomeRandom]

Really? That would be awfully stupid.
I never remotely heard anyone say that.

You haven’t? I saw that all the time on forums I frequented back in the day. And I’m not even American!
The basic gist of it was “minimum wage was never supposed to be the last stop for people. It’s just somewhere a kid can earn some money while they study for a better job.”
Which I always questioned with, but those kids still need to live!

 

[Shaul]

You have said: "Every job is held by choice". But that's not completely accurate: sometimes it is either get ( and keep ) that one job or say welcome to misery. That's not much of a choice at all.

No, what I wrote was accurate. Every job is held by choice. There is no slavery in the U.S. A “hard choice” is still is choice.

 

[Darkforbid]

No, what I wrote was accurate. Every job is held by choice. There is no slavery in the U.S. A “hard choice” is still is choice.

"The practices of slavery and human trafficking are still prevalent in modern America with estimated 17,500 foreign nationals and 400,000 Americans being trafficked into and within the United States every year with 80% of those being women and children."

 

[Audie]

You haven’t? I saw that all the time on forums I frequented back in the day. And I’m not even American!
The basic gist of it was “minimum wage was never supposed to be the last stop for people. It’s just somewhere a kid can earn some money while they study for a better job.”
Which I always questioned with, but those kids still need to live!

You is changin' the topic.

 

[SomeRandom]

You is changin' the topic.

Fair enough.
I just mean that the rhetoric against minimum wage always seemingly included the whole “minimum should not be a living wage, so kids can work” line of reasoning. I guess you’ve interacted with more empathetic people than others have had to put up with. Makes me a realise I may interact with more ******** than others lol

 

[Audie]

Fair enough.
I just mean that the rhetoric against minimum wage always seemingly included the whole “minimum should not be a living wage, so kids can work” line of reasoning. I guess you’ve interacted with more empathetic people than others have had to put up with. Makes me a realise I may interact with more ******** than others lol

So kids can work.
It is a legitimate concern.