Miracles. Scientific Proof.

[YoursTrue]

Well firstly you have no objective evidence of what anyone saw or did not see. Secondly there is no evidence for any resurrection, only hearsay claims in anonymous gospels. Lastly you need to tell us why you find my disbelief in fallacious appeals to mystery interesting, in light of this unevidenced hearsay in the gospels?

Sheldon, I'm not going to argue with you, and you believe what you will. I know it sounds like a conundrum, and I know you don't believe in God, but I have found (having been an atheist) that only God can bring you to Him.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have no idea what that means, but is the clearest use of whataboutism I've seen.

Why do theists think their beliefs can be propped up by attacking or denigrating other beliefs? A belief stands only on its own merits, or at least it should.

There is nothing to denigrate. It is simple, and that from science, in that gorillas and bonobos are very close genetically, it is said, to humans. but the differences of thinking and ability are vast between them. If a person wants to argue that, I'm out of that argument. If they want to say that gorillas write music, or bonobos after all these years can read recipes, again -- I'm out of those arguments now. When you speak of "theists," I am not saying that people do not believe in or worship gods that I would not join them with their ideas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If they want to say that gorillas write music, ..

Some species between gorillas and humans made the first music. Perhaps Homo habilis or Homo erectus or Homo sapiens heidelbergensis or Homo sapiens neandethalensis. Homo sapiens sapiens (modern humans) were definitely not the first with music.

The problem is that your knowledge is limited to Bible only, and nothing else. And if you come across anything else, you do not accept it. A very sorry state of affairs. Why do you want to be like a stagnant pool of water?

370,000 year old marks on elephant tusks, first known writing. Homo sapiens heidelbergensis.

Homo sapiens neanderthalensis flute, 50-60,000 years old.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some species between gorillas and humans made the first music. Perhaps Homo habilis or Homo erectus or Homo sapiens heidelbergensis or Homo sapiens neandethalensis. Homo sapiens sapiens (modern humans) were definitely not the first with music.

370,000 year old marks on elephant tusks, first known writing. Homo sapiens heidelbergensis.

Homo sapiens neanderthalensis flute, 50-60,000 years old.

Would you also say they wrote music so others could read it?

 

[YoursTrue]

Some species between gorillas and humans made the first music. Perhaps Homo habilis or Homo erectus or Homo sapiens heidelbergensis or Homo sapiens neandethalensis.

You know this how? I'm speaking primarily of writing music down so others can read it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Would you also say they wrote music so others could read it?

Every thing in its own time. If Neanderthals played flute, then I am sure they knew about beats and drums. Why would they need to write it? Their children would pick up what their elders were doing.

You know this how? I'm speaking primarily of writing music down so others can read it.

Even Torah and Bible, Vedas and Avesta were written only later. They were communicated orally in pre-history. Why this insistence on writing?

 

[joelr]

People healing way faster never seen science explain it.

People healing faster is explained by the medical field (and the Catholic church) by saying there are things about the body we do not yet understand.

As this article from WebMB explains:
"We tend to call miracles good things that we do not understand how they happened," Ribas says. . "From the human observation perspective, there have been plenty of medical miracles. However, each one has a specific biological mechanism that led to improvement in a patient. In cancer treatment, early studies using the immune system resulted in occasional patients having tumor responses and long-term benefits.
"With the increased understanding of how the immune system interacts with cancers, which is based on remarkable progress in understanding how the immune system works generated over the past several decades, these 'miracles' become specific mechanisms leading to response to cancer, which can then be replicated in other patients."

So they are usually linked to a specific response, not a supernatural cause. If it's not understood than it's not understood. Smuggling in a supernatural cause is unwarranted.

The Catholic church:
"
In 2000, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued "Instruction on prayers for healing" with specific norms about prayer meetings for obtaining healing,[32] which presents the Catholic Church's doctrines of sickness and healing.[34]: 230 [further explanation needed]

It accepts "that there may be means of natural healing that have not yet been understood or recognized by science",["


Skeptics of faith healing offer primarily two explanations for anecdotes of cures or improvements, relieving any need to appeal to the supernatural.[e][90] The first is post hoc ergo propter hoc, meaning that a genuine improvement or spontaneous remission may have been experienced coincidental with but independent from anything the faith healer or patient did or said. These patients would have improved just as well even had they done nothing. The second is the placebo effect, through which a person may experience genuine pain relief and other symptomatic alleviation. In this case, the patient genuinely has been helped by the faith healer or faith-based remedy, not through any mysterious or numinous function, but by the power of their own belief that they would be healed.[91][f][92] In both cases the patient may experience a real reduction in symptoms, though in neither case has anything miraculous or inexplicable occurred. Both cases, however, are strictly limited to the body's natural abilities.

According to the American Cancer Society:

... available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments... One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.




Faith healing - Wikipedia

Same with people rising from the dead.

Rising from the dead has never been documented outside of mythology. There were at least 6 deities who resurrected for the salvation of the followers before Christianity and Jesus. These are stories.
Osiris
Dionysus and several more.
Original sources are given:
Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier

So in short if science does not cover it deny it?

Science covers miracles.
This is taken from 6 peer-reviewed journals:
"Virtually all[a] scientists and philosophers dismiss faith healing as pseudoscience.[3][4][5][6]"


the American Cancer Society also covers it:

What is the evidence?
Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a “placebo effect” can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient’s belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one’s faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.

Although there are few studies in adults, one study conducted in 1989 suggested that adult Christian Scientists, who generally use prayer rather than medical care, have a higher death rate than other people of the same age.

Are there any possible problems or complications?
People who seek help through faith healing and are not cured may have feelings of hopelessness, failure, guilt, worthlessness, and depression. In some groups, the person may be told that his or her faith was not strong enough. The healer and others may hold the person responsible for the failure of their healing. This can alienate and discourage the person who is still sick.

Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences. Death, disability, and other unwanted outcomes have occurred when faith healing was elected instead of medical care for serious injuries or illnesses.

While competent adults may choose faith healing over medical care, communities often become concerned when parents make such choices for their children. This concern has sparked organizations to work toward creating laws to protect children from inappropriate treatment by faith healers.

Finally, a few “faith healers” have been caught using fraud as a way to get others to believe in their methods. These people often solicited large donations or charged money for their healing sessions.



Faith Healing

 

[YoursTrue]

Every thing in its own time. If Neanderthals played flute, then I am sure they knew about beats and drums. Why would they need to write it? Their children would pick up what their elders were doing.Even Torah and Bible, Vedas and Avesta were written only later. They were communicated orally in pre-history. Why this insistence on writing?

If you can't figure how important writing is, and how it is unique among humans insofar as relating history as well as music, I guess the conversation can end here.
Neanderthals were not gorillas, were they? Gorillas are yet gorillas, and scientists say there is a great similarity of DNA with less than about 2% difference between them and humans, if I remember correctly. Yet gorillas still do not write down music -- neither do bonobos. I imagine you might argue that bonobos do not have a need for cars either.
That 2% evidently means a lot, but maybe you don't think so.

 

[YoursTrue]

People healing faster is explained by the medical field (and the Catholic church) by saying there are things about the body we do not yet understand.

As this article from WebMB explains:
"We tend to call miracles good things that we do not understand how they happened," Ribas says. . "From the human observation perspective, there have been plenty of medical miracles. However, each one has a specific biological mechanism that led to improvement in a patient. In cancer treatment, early studies using the immune system resulted in occasional patients having tumor responses and long-term benefits.
"With the increased understanding of how the immune system interacts with cancers, which is based on remarkable progress in understanding how the immune system works generated over the past several decades, these 'miracles' become specific mechanisms leading to response to cancer, which can then be replicated in other patients."

So they are usually linked to a specific response, not a supernatural cause. If it's not understood than it's not understood. Smuggling in a supernatural cause is unwarranted.

The Catholic church:
"
In 2000, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued "Instruction on prayers for healing" with specific norms about prayer meetings for obtaining healing,[32] which presents the Catholic Church's doctrines of sickness and healing.[34]: 230 [further explanation needed]

It accepts "that there may be means of natural healing that have not yet been understood or recognized by science",["


Skeptics of faith healing offer primarily two explanations for anecdotes of cures or improvements, relieving any need to appeal to the supernatural.[e][90] The first is post hoc ergo propter hoc, meaning that a genuine improvement or spontaneous remission may have been experienced coincidental with but independent from anything the faith healer or patient did or said. These patients would have improved just as well even had they done nothing. The second is the placebo effect, through which a person may experience genuine pain relief and other symptomatic alleviation. In this case, the patient genuinely has been helped by the faith healer or faith-based remedy, not through any mysterious or numinous function, but by the power of their own belief that they would be healed.[91][f][92] In both cases the patient may experience a real reduction in symptoms, though in neither case has anything miraculous or inexplicable occurred. Both cases, however, are strictly limited to the body's natural abilities.

According to the American Cancer Society:

... available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments... One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.




Faith healing - Wikipedia

Rising from the dead has never been documented outside of mythology. There were at least 6 deities who resurrected for the salvation of the followers before Christianity and Jesus. These are stories.
Osiris
Dionysus and several more.
Original sources are given:
Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier








Science covers miracles.
This is taken from 6 peer-reviewed journals:
"Virtually all[a] scientists and philosophers dismiss faith healing as pseudoscience.[3][4][5][6]"


the American Cancer Society also covers it:

What is the evidence?
Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a “placebo effect” can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient’s belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one’s faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.

Although there are few studies in adults, one study conducted in 1989 suggested that adult Christian Scientists, who generally use prayer rather than medical care, have a higher death rate than other people of the same age.

Are there any possible problems or complications?
People who seek help through faith healing and are not cured may have feelings of hopelessness, failure, guilt, worthlessness, and depression. In some groups, the person may be told that his or her faith was not strong enough. The healer and others may hold the person responsible for the failure of their healing. This can alienate and discourage the person who is still sick.

Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences. Death, disability, and other unwanted outcomes have occurred when faith healing was elected instead of medical care for serious injuries or illnesses.

While competent adults may choose faith healing over medical care, communities often become concerned when parents make such choices for their children. This concern has sparked organizations to work toward creating laws to protect children from inappropriate treatment by faith healers.

Finally, a few “faith healers” have been caught using fraud as a way to get others to believe in their methods. These people often solicited large donations or charged money for their healing sessions.



Faith Healing

Much of that is true about faith healing, although people will contest that. I believe that a good attitude can help a person overcome obstacles, possibly even physical ailments to an extent. By the way--and I don't go to faith healers--do you think bonobos and gorillas have meetings of faith healing?

 

[YoursTrue]

Every thing in its own time. If Neanderthals played flute, then I am sure they knew about beats and drums. Why would they need to write it? Their children would pick up what their elders were doing.Even Torah and Bible, Vedas and Avesta were written only later. They were communicated orally in pre-history. Why this insistence on writing?

So again -- do you know of any oral then eventually becoming written history passed on to and by gorillas about themselves and/or others?

 

[KWED]

Oh, and sometimes there were cities that were not discovered for centuries because they were under mounds of soil or water at sea.

Troy is mentioned repeatedly in Ancient Greek scripture, along with supernatural events (miracles). Troy used to be thought of as mere legend. It has since been discovered. Therefore the miracles in ancient Greek scripture must therefore be real.
Correct?

 

[KWED]

Many events have never been recorded. It doesn't mean they did not happen. Even on a jury, sometimes not all will agree. And sometimes some are in a hurry to get home so render a verdict that does not go along with the truth, going on a possibility. And sometimes that juror regrets it later.

So you assume that any unsupported claim is true until it has been disproved.
Correct?

 

[KWED]

Using textual formatted threats secretly one day is going to be realised also.

Your random text generator appears to be malfunctioning.
Have you tried turning it off and on again?

 

[KWED]

People healing way faster never seen science explain it.

People heal. Medical science can explain that.
There is no fixed schedule of recovery from specific conditions. Rate of recovery can vary widely depending on a range of factors.

Same with people rising from the dead.

Never happened.

So in short if science does not cover it deny it?

No.
If you make an extraordinary claim but can't support it, we can dismiss it.

 

[KWED]

Find a Bible. Christ rose from he dad and was seen my a great many,

Oh dear.

 

[KWED]

This may come as a surprise, but "scientific" journals are not going to publish that which offends is paying base. Also they were not around 200 years back.

Why do so many people who clearly have literally no idea about science, feel qualified to educate scientists on science's flaws?

 

[KWED]

Yeah, and another time when New York was devastated by an alien, a baby alien at that. There was a documentary that was released by the military, Cloverfield. How did they rebuild New York so fast? That thing ripped the head off of the Statue of Liberty. They fixed it.

A miracle, obvs.

 

[KWED]

I know. I suspect it was an inside job. And there's definitely a conspiracy. Even now, if you go to New York and speak to people who lived there all their lives, they'll say they never saw it.

Clear evidence of a cover-up!

 

[KWED]

People argue all the time. However the event was witnessed and documented. People may opt to not believe, but we do have records of the events.

There are no contemporary records of the resurrection. There are only hearsay written long after the event by people with an agenda to promote the idea of a Magical Jesus.

The only near-contemporary, independent records of Jesus do not mention the resurrection, or any other magical stuff. Kinda odd, don't you think? A bit like a biography of Trump not mentioning that he was president of the USA.

 

[KWED]

Ah yes the decent into mockery rather that addressing the issue.

Using mockery to respond to a ridiculous position is a perfectly legitimate method. It's called "satire".