Miracles

[McBell]

My point is that there is no reason to attribute some unattainable "divine" quality to God, when all of his actions are replicable. It's entirely possible that "God" is the engineering of some alien being, or even time-travelling humans. Reports of God's power have been greatly exaggerated, perhaps.

Um...
How is this proposal any different than claiming "God Did It"?

 

[McBell]

I would like to speak of beautiful miracles, that happened in 1531, in Mexico city during the time that the Christian Catholics ignorantly imposed their religion (Ill just call it inorant) Mother Mary appeared to a simple man that was named Juan Diego (indian name Cuahtlatcouac) and told him to go and tell the bishop that she wanted a temple built on the hill of Tepeyac. The bishop didnt want to believe him and said to bring proof. December 12, Mother Mary asked him to go to the bush up on the hill and pick all the roses (roses are dormant during winter but maybe technology) She told him to pick the roses and hold it in the ayate (sarpe type) and to not show it to anyone else but the bishop. He went and waited to see the bishop. when he finally was in front of the bishop he showed the roses and and let them fall on his table, the bishop fell to his knees because the image of Mother Mary exactly how Juan had seen her was imprinted on the ayate. well ofcourse temple was made as she wanted a temple where people would come and love Jesus, (but that is another story) Technology all through the years has tested with what they had and now have and still come up the same.
1, the paint is not of this earth
2. the eyes dialate the same in the darknes and light as ours do
3. it holds the temperature of 97.5
4. since it has the symbol of pregnancy, with a stethiscope you can here the heart beat at 180 per minute like the one of a baby in a womb.
5. an ayate only lasts well kept 35 years, and has recently been tested with acid on a tip and it reweaved itself.
6. my favorite. with technologies red laser beam they wanted to measure the thickness and to their surprise, found that the image, is point something (I can get exat #) seperated from the ayate it is huvering in front of the ayate, literally floating in the air
yes technology is great, it proved all that. technology has come from all parts of the world. many intelligent men came with the intention to disprove it. and would assume their hearts about it left different.

and this is a kick, not to long ago maybe less than 30yrs, a fanatic of some kind went in with a bomb and put in under the frame, where the ayate is, when it went off a Golden plated cross that was under it also bent forward as if to cover the bomb and nothing happened to the frame (coincidence maybe)

blessings during this chrisis to all

Source please.

 

[McBell]

Technology cannot do miracles. When technology does it, it's simply advanced technology, NOT a miracle. Miracles happen when the laws of nature are suspended. Technology does not defy the laws of nature.

i.e. Man walks on water without technology. Miracle. Man walks on water with technology. Not a miracle.
.

Um...

"WordNet (r) 2.0"
miracle
n
1: any amazing or wonderful occurrence
2: a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God​

 

[luvuyesua]

Mestemia the way you answered me makes me laugh, i love it short and to the point jajajajaj, any way yes their is sources and I wish I had my sister inlaws book that had the names many that went and studied the tilma, ayate,sarape. so I may take me another thread to put the different ones, the first as it started was in1929 when alfonso marcue a photographer took a picturre of the image and found what appeared to be a bearded man reflecting from the pupil of the right eye, almost 20 years later, Jose Salinas Chavez an opthamologist physician re examined the photo and saw it, than got permission to examen the tilma, after more than 20 opthaologist specialists have received permission to prove or disprove, and have proven more, Dr. Aste Tonsman ingere in science is one of them. another study that I didnt mention on the first thread, is the one of the astronomer John Illegas, that putting together all star maps from different parts of the world and getting together with astronomers, found that the 46 stars that our on the image of Mother mary, match exactly with the same position and number of stars that were in space that same day, the study took more than 6 months. I will have more time and information about who made the other studies soon. The bent Cross story, I went and seen it myself and read the document story their.

 

[Tathagata]

Um...

"WordNet (r) 2.0"
miracle
n
1: any amazing or wonderful occurrence
2: a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God​

You're just trying to be a smart mouth. I'm talking about the technical definition. Of course anyone can stand in awe at something and call it a miracle. In philosophical and scientific terms, your definition is NOT a miracle. It's sophistry.

Miracle (Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy): "David Hume offered two definitions of “miracle;” first, as a violation of natural law (Enquiries p. 114); shortly afterward he offers a more complex definition when he says that a miracle is “a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent.”


.

 

[PolyHedral]

Technology cannot do miracles. When technology does it, it's simply advanced technology, NOT a miracle. Miracles happen when the laws of nature are suspended. Technology does not defy the laws of nature.

Then, AFAIK, there have been no miracles. And remember, what is considered a "law of nature" might change as science marches on. Tell Newton that you have invented a machine that can divine the planetary motions to one part in a trillion, and yet still fit inside your thumbnail, and he would probably call it a miracle.

And the most powerful technology is not going to be visible. Compare the idea of a 1950s mainframe, with units full of flashing lights, and spools of tickertape, to your mobile phone, which is over 1000x more powerful.

How is this proposal any different than claiming "God Did It"?

It's vastly different from "a God from outside the universe did it." It might be closer to a more "earthly" version of God, though.

 

[McBell]

You're just trying to be a smart mouth. I'm talking about the technical definition. Of course anyone can stand in awe at something and call it a miracle. In philosophical and scientific terms, your definition is NOT a miracle. It's sophistry.

Now you are merely attempting to justify your dishonesty.
The fact is that you did not present the full definition of the word.

 

[McBell]

It's vastly different from "a God from outside the universe did it."

Not from where I stand.

However, I shall give you a chance to present the evidence that your possibility is more likely than "God Did It".

 

[PolyHedral]

In order for God to exist, there must be something "outside" the universe, since God is not considered to be bound by physics.
My idea doesn't need that, and fits all the data just as well.

 

[McBell]

In order for God to exist, there must be something "outside" the universe, since God is not considered to be bound by physics.
My idea doesn't need that, and fits all the data just as well.

Is that it?

 

[PolyHedral]

Is more required?

Also, my idea answers a question I haven't seen most religions answer: Concepts of God are so diverse and varied because the being inspired these ideas deliberately.

 

[McBell]

Is more required?

Also, my idea answers a question I haven't seen most religions answer: Concepts of God are so diverse and varied because the being inspired these ideas deliberately.

I am merely saying that from where I stand your proposal has no more evidence for it than there is for god.

 

[luvuyesua]

p as it started was in1929 when alfonso marcue a photographer took a picturre of the image and found what appeared to be a bearded man reflecting from the pupil of the right eye, almost 20 years later, Jose Salinas Chavez an opthamologist hysician re examined the photo and saw it, than got permission to examen the tilma, after more than 20 opthaologist specialists have received permission to prove or disprove, and have proven more, Dr. Aste Tonsman ingere in science astronomer John Illegas, that putting together all star maps from different parts of the world and getting together with astronomers, found that the 46 stars that our on the cloak of the image of Mother mary, match exactly with the same position and number of stars that were in space that same day, the study took more than 6 months. I will
quoted fom my last answer to this thread.

every study of each part of the Virgin Mary ended up being unexplained, mysterious miracle is what I would call it

The Tilma it self is a very coarse cloth made of agave. (cloak)
August 12th 2009 researcher and physicist Dr. Adolf Orozco explains that their is no scientific explanation about the preservation of the Tilma, 478 yrs. it is beyond scientific explanation. all the cloths similar to the Tilma have been place in the salty and humid invironment and only has lasted no more than ten years. 1789 a painting was placed by the best technique of its time in a framed glass near by, so that people could see it, however they threw it away 8 years later because the paint and everything began to deteriorate. in contrast the original tilma was exposed for the first 116 years, before placed in anything.
the source to this to me is also people who have been going to see the image since the early1500s




blessings to all during the chrisis some are going through.

 

[PolyHedral]

it is beyond scientific explanation.

True, but that doesn't mean it is beyond scientific possibility. I bet nobody's tried looking for nanomachines inside it.

I am merely saying that from where I stand your proposal has no more evidence for it than there is for god.

Isn't most of the evidence for God was in scriptures of various kinds?

 

[luvuyesua]

Poly Hedral you sound like Jack. jjajajaj

scientifically possible to make the stars in space be the exact position and the exact # of stars as on the cloak, on the same day that the appearance happens in 1531?

 

[luvuyesua]

Poly Hedral can it be scientifically possible to have a cloak hold human temperature for years with nothing left on it no wire no nothing. and if they can that would be a billion dollar invention for the homes, wireless, unitless, and for many hundreds of years holding human temperature.

 

[PolyHedral]

nothing left on it no wire no nothing

The technology involved could probably only be seen with a microscope. At minimum.

scientifically possible to make the stars in space be the exact position and the exact # of stars as on the cloak

Very unlikely, but it's comparatively trivial to make the cloak match the stars.

a cloak hold human temperature for years

Depends how continuously it's monitored. It's easy to heat it to human temperature if you have a good power supply and warning.

 

[McBell]

Mestemia the way you answered me makes me laugh, i love it short and to the point jajajajaj, any way yes their is sources and I wish I had my sister inlaws book that had the names many that went and studied the tilma, ayate,sarape. so I may take me another thread to put the different ones, the first as it started was in1929 when alfonso marcue a photographer took a picturre of the image and found what appeared to be a bearded man reflecting from the pupil of the right eye, almost 20 years later, Jose Salinas Chavez an opthamologist physician re examined the photo and saw it, than got permission to examen the tilma, after more than 20 opthaologist specialists have received permission to prove or disprove, and have proven more, Dr. Aste Tonsman ingere in science is one of them. another study that I didnt mention on the first thread, is the one of the astronomer John Illegas, that putting together all star maps from different parts of the world and getting together with astronomers, found that the 46 stars that our on the image of Mother mary, match exactly with the same position and number of stars that were in space that same day, the study took more than 6 months. I will have more time and information about who made the other studies soon. The bent Cross story, I went and seen it myself and read the document story their.

Source please

p as it started was in1929 when alfonso marcue a photographer took a picturre of the image and found what appeared to be a bearded man reflecting from the pupil of the right eye, almost 20 years later, Jose Salinas Chavez an opthamologist hysician re examined the photo and saw it, than got permission to examen the tilma, after more than 20 opthaologist specialists have received permission to prove or disprove, and have proven more, Dr. Aste Tonsman ingere in science astronomer John Illegas, that putting together all star maps from different parts of the world and getting together with astronomers, found that the 46 stars that our on the cloak of the image of Mother mary, match exactly with the same position and number of stars that were in space that same day, the study took more than 6 months. I will
quoted fom my last answer to this thread.

every study of each part of the Virgin Mary ended up being unexplained, mysterious miracle is what I would call it

The Tilma it self is a very coarse cloth made of agave. (cloak)
August 12th 2009 researcher and physicist Dr. Adolf Orozco explains that their is no scientific explanation about the preservation of the Tilma, 478 yrs. it is beyond scientific explanation. all the cloths similar to the Tilma have been place in the salty and humid invironment and only has lasted no more than ten years. 1789 a painting was placed by the best technique of its time in a framed glass near by, so that people could see it, however they threw it away 8 years later because the paint and everything began to deteriorate. in contrast the original tilma was exposed for the first 116 years, before placed in anything.
the source to this to me is also people who have been going to see the image since the early1500s

Sources please

scientifically possible to make the stars in space be the exact position and the exact # of stars as on the cloak, on the same day that the appearance happens in 1531?

Sources please


You have made numerous claims.
I am asking for a source for each of said claims.
Would you please be kind enough to present the source of your claims?

 

[luvuyesua]

Mestepia

interesting enough, the source went from one source to world wide.

In the early 1500s the spaniards came to mexico to impose the catholic religion, in Mexico they idolized many Gods and did many sacrifices, but that is another story, when this appearance happened to a peasant, asking the peasant to tell the catholic bishop her wishes, for a temple to be built and where, and having to take proof. you can say that the (source A ) Ill call it was the catholic church. The Mexicans began to believe and adore their mother. to this Day and Everyday. The Europeans hypothesis was that since the catholic church needed them to believe, that is why they put this image, lie. and since the technology at that time had not really grown as it would be in the future, well nobody could really test it. So the years to come after the appearance, started to prove it true, many scientists (non religious or disbelievers) fom different parts arround the world, tested it and became a source, from other religions came and became a source, many without religion,became a source, different doctors, engineers professional from all continents became a source. How long has the laser beam existed, that became a source. Technology from primitive to modern is a source and I am sure that new modern technology recorded from any part of the world will become a source. by the way another temple had to be built right next to the original not to long ago, because of the sources proving, and hundreds daily go an visit, and in December thousands, I have been their, what a good spirital experience.

kind of like what they are doing with forensic, and discovering the culprate from 50 years ago. maybe not a good analogy but technology has had its day and will continue probably

and another piece of information, that has many witnesses, the bomb I spoke about, that went off, broke the marble and windows as far as 150 meters arround, nothing happened to the glass of the frame that was less than 8 ft away, much less anything happening to the image.

is this the source you asked me to explain?


may you be blessed during any hard moments

 

[Beaudreaux]

Miracles, by their very definition, cannot exist. Only that which can happen does happen.