Miracles

[Kenny]

It may be old, but it's accurate so far as anyone has evidence for. Which is why it's become so cliche.

And why people who believe prayers do actually work, hate being reminded that amputees never get healed by ... god.

Azusa street Revival.

 

[dianaiad]

Why not? Unless something deliberately warps actual reality? Religion is nothing special--- it's like any other hobby people engage in.

But. Religion *does* claim to warp actual reality!

It teaches that praying will cause the Ultimate Creator to change it's plans to suit the person praying's request!

It teaches that believers can expect reality to be warped upon request.

That's ... unhealthy.

And that's your opinion. (grin) Not that you aren't entitled to it, mind you, but it IS an opinion. About religion. And it is purely subjective.

See the problem?

 

[shunyadragon]

you obviously haven't read the material. No matter, doctors are available for you too (as well as me).

I have read the material in the discussion of the subject in old threads on another cite. @ecco reference is roughly correct. I may make other references.

The medical profession is at present the best most consistent healing source even though humanly flawed at times.

It is arguing a fallacy and a dodge when constantly accusing 'opinion' and not providing any substantive argument based on objective evidence, and the larger picture including the incidence of of healing without prayer.

 

[shunyadragon]

And that's your opinion. (grin) Not that you aren't entitled to it, mind you, but it IS an opinion. About religion. And it is purely subjective.

See the problem?

Ah. not purely subjective the skeptical posters have cited more factual sources, and comparisons of over all spontaneous healing. Unfortunately those promoting Divine intervention in healing miracles have only cited anecdotal personal claims, which by definition are 'opinion.'

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I beg to differ. The Gospels ARE a record.

No. They are not "records" as you assert. They are at best, heresay/copies/friend-of-a-friend stories.

Anyone with a little time and the Google can verify this fact. To be a record? They would have to have been written during the events described, not 60 to 90 years too late.

In as much as there are millions and billions of people who hold to my position, the question would be who has the larger context

Argument From Popularity Logical Fallacy.

Not all *that* long ago? Everyone just knew the earth was the center of the Universe, and the sun went around it...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You need a larger pool of examples. In my neck of the woods we have a different conclussion

Argument from Popularity Logical Fallacy.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A position that many hold on to and then don't receive a miracle because of their unbelief (as Jesus would say)

A reason that so many studies are flawed.

So. In order for your very flawed "argument" to have merit?

Your god --- the god you believe is "good" -- would deliberately and with malice, withhold desperately needed cures from people just because they did not properly stroke it's massively over-inflated ego in exactly the right way?

Gotcha!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Azusa street Revival.

I don't know what that is.... care to elaborate? Or you will trust that I can find truly "unbiased" sources that will "confirm" what you already "know"?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

And that's your opinion. (grin) Not that you aren't entitled to it, mind you, but it IS an opinion. About religion. And it is purely subjective.

See the problem?

No-- it's not my opinion-- it is my observation, based on the claims of many who report being 'christian' (among other belief).

Rather a horse of a different color.

If god is as good as purported by it's self-appointed followers? Then... they have a problem, because when examined, there is no god-created good on the planet at this time.

And there is much evil-- that an actual, all-powerful, all-good deity could easily make go away.

 

[Religious questioner]

Life is a miracle, to be on earth and live a life that some people may not have is a miracle, as you non believers see Miracles happen all the time, let’s tone the proposition down a bit and call it luck or something? but if you don’t believe that god does all of this then who does, who controls our existence? Whom? “Creations cannot start without a creator”

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Life is a miracle, to be on earth and live a life that some people may not have is a miracle, as you non believers see Miracles happen all the time, let’s tone the proposition down a bit and call it luck or something? but if you don’t believe that god does all of this then who does, who controls our existence? Whom? “Creations cannot start without a creator”

Assumptive claims can be dismissed without further ado, if the assumptions are not even argued.

"creation"? Says who? Why do you assume it's a "creation" in the first place?

"creator" What sort? Molten lava can create a mountain. Would anyone claim that the lava was sentient, deliberate or had free will?

"who controls our existence"? Why must you assume there is a "who"? What makes you say existence is under any sort of control?

Finally? If there is a god? It's #1 trait is one of deliberate inconclusiveness. It behaves in exactly the right way, to avoid any and all certainty of it's existence, leaving it up to serious questioning.

What sort of "good" being behaves in such a way?

 

[Religious questioner]

Assumptive claims can be dismissed without further ado, if the assumptions are not even argued.

"creation"? Says who? Why do you assume it's a "creation" in the first place?

"creator" What sort? Molten lava can create a mountain. Would anyone claim that the lava was sentient, deliberate or had free will?

"who controls our existence"? Why must you assume there is a "who"? What makes you say existence is under any sort of control?

Finally? If there is a god? It's #1 trait is one of deliberate inconclusiveness. It behaves in exactly the right way, to avoid any and all certainty of it's existence, leaving it up to serious questioning.

What sort of "good" being behaves in such a way?





Well thank you for respecting my opinion, it’s certainly has to be the truth? Am I wrong? I’ve been studying this type of matter for almost 20 years

 

[Kenny]

So. In order for your very flawed "argument" to have merit?

Your god --- the god you believe is "good" -- would deliberately and with malice, withhold desperately needed cures from people just because they did not properly stroke it's massively over-inflated ego in exactly the right way?

Gotcha!

That is so funny....

So... when your doctor says "take these antibiotics 4 times a day- 1 every 6 hours for 12 days and you do it for 6 days and only 2 a day, it is your doctors deliberate and malicious fault that you are still sick because you didn't stroke his massively over-inflated ego in exactly the right way...

Got it!!!

 

[ecco]

you obviously haven't read the material. No matter, doctors are available for you too (as well as me).

Actually you wrote " Azusa St revival in the early 1900's". You provided no links. I took the time to find what you were referring to. I did read the some of the material in links I found. As I said - Uh huh.

When it comes to woo, you apparently don't have any level of skepticism. That's understandable.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That is so funny....

So... when your doctor says "take these antibiotics 4 times a day- 1 every 6 hours for 12 days and you do it for 6 days and only 2 a day, it is your doctors deliberate and malicious fault that you are still sick because you didn't stroke his massively over-inflated ego in exactly the right way...

Got it!!!

Oops! The problem you have, here? The DOCTOR IS REAL AND YOU CAN TALK BACK AND FORTH!

This is 100% directly the opposite of this "god" of yours, who apparently must rely entirely on ...

..... you....

... or people just like you...

... to get the "prescription" to the "patient"!

Dammit, that's some seriously incompetent "godding" that's what that is.

To put it in the same terms? The actual doctor would send ALL the prescription to the local trash collector, who then reads it to his cat. And then the cat forwards it to the dog next door, who in turn gives it to a squirrel.

Finally, the "patent" sees some random acorns lying on the ground and exclaims:

EUREKA! A MESSAGE FROM MY DOCTOR!

 

[Kenny]

Oops! The problem you have, here? The DOCTOR IS REAL AND YOU CAN TALK BACK AND FORTH!

!

Actually!

The conversation with God is a two way street. Are you talking so much He can't get a word in?

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually!

The conversation with God is a two way street. Are you talking so much He can't get a word in?

I seriously question, as with the question of miracles, whether you would know who is talking to God and who is not, nor do you know who God is listening to.

 

[ecco]

I seriously question, as with the question of miracles, whether you would know who is talking to God and who is not, nor do you know who God is listening to.

Many people have done bad things and claimed they did them because they heard the voice of god tell them to. When caught, they usually ended up in mental institutions.

 

[Kenny]

I seriously question, as with the question of miracles, whether you would know who is talking to God and who is not, nor do you know who God is listening to.

I am happy to report that your viewpoint doesn't change mine or God's

Questions are good if you ask like Mary and they are bad if you ask like Zacharias.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Actually!

The conversation with God is a two way street. Are you talking so much He can't get a word in?

Really? I do not believe you -- at all.

Proof? 40,000 different and distinct flavors of Christianity alone. If there really were "two way communication" as you claim?

There would only be the one (1) religion.... unless... god says vastly **different** things to each person?

What sort of chaos would THAT create?

Oh! More than 40,000 different incarnations of chaos, that's what!