Miracles

[Dawnofhope]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

 

[dianaiad]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

A few approaches to this:

One...God the Creator invented the laws of nature. He can break them any time He feels like it.
Two...God the Creator either invented the laws of nature...and we don't know enough about them yet to tie down all the possibilities. I mean, for crying out loud; a virgin birth isn't exactly something we can't do ourselves now, is it? We understand the mechanics of procreation, and we can get a woman pregnant without having any fun first. One miracle down.
Three...well, I'm going with two.

The thing is, those who absolutely INSIST that miracles be a complete breakage of natural law, rather than a use of such law in a way not understood by the participants/viewers, are missing the point of them, I think.

Just for fun, when I was younger, I went about trying to figure out how we could duplicate the miracles that Jesus is credited for. I even walked on water myself once. Stupid boat shoes nearly dislocated my hips, but I did it.

Turning the water into wine...OK...but we know how to do that, too. we just don't do it as fast and we need some extra 'stuff' to pull it off, but I crossed that one off my list when I passed a shelf of 'instant mixers' in the supermarket; pour the stuff out, add vodka, and viola', a Moscow Mule. That was one of the times I was glad I don't drink alcohol.

Didn't manage the calming the seas....but don't scientists sometimes manage to 'seed' clouds to make them go ...elsewhere? As for resurrecting the dead...goodness. HOW many companies are out there freezing the heads of our dearly departed in the hope that science can eventually bring 'em back?

The OT miracles are dicier, of course....there is that splitting of the sea thing, and the making the sun go backwards, though science has pretty much figured out the plagues of Egypt. Sort of.

The upshot...or bottom line (look, I'm tired and I'm fooling around a bit here) is that yeah, we should take those miracles literally. Perhaps not put TOO much confidence in the reports, but figure that something happened, and yeah, it's within the realm of physical law; would have to be, if God were involved. He invented physical law, after all. It's just that we don't know enough yet. Channel Clarke's Laws, if you need to. His third one. (nobody remembers the first two anyway).

Then again, the people reporting them knew a whole lot less than we do, and most of 'em had lessons attached, so....metaphorically is OK, too.

Me? I believe 'em. They may not have happened precisely as described, but (shrug) they happened. Mostly.

I figure more will happen now and in the future, too. When they do, I'll thank God...and all the other people involved in 'em, as well.

 

[sun rise]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

From an Eastern perspective, "miracles" are called siddhis that some yogis can perform after serious austerities. Tantric practices are designed to develop some of those powers.

So to me a good question is why did the Christ need to demonstrate siddhis as part of His work?

 

[Ellen Brown]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

We are not speaking of TV miracles, right?

 

[Dawnofhope]

We are not speaking of TV miracles, right?

The ones recorded in the Gospels....I don't think TV had been invented 2,000 years ago!

 

[Brickjectivity]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Deuteronomy 13:1..3 "If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder,...you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer." I have abridged this not to say that miracles don't happen but only that they do not prove God's will in any matter whatsoever.

What follows is my own opinion not something I have been told. Deuteronomy 13:1 contains laws pertaining to this subject of miracles. These are laws not opinions or ideas for Jews. Laws are more important to the readers than stories, than interpretations and more important than miracles. When one Jew writes to another and says that a miracle proves something, it doesn't and can't; and the claim must be considered a literary device. The writer of Deuteronomy absolutely does not trust miraculous powers or any sort of powers whatsoever. For that reason any time -- absolutely any time that a Jewish writer in the Bible records a miracle as if it were testimony to some doctrine, you should immediately begin to question everything about the doctrine. It doesn't matter if it is worded as if the miracle is a proof, because its Jewish culture and in Jewish culture law trumps stories. Its not Hindu or Viking or Slavic or Greek. Miracles don't prove God's will. That, in turn, means that no you can't take them for more than literary devices whether they actually happen or not. They are challenges to question the claim nothing more.

Now why would writers do this? Well a writer who wants to test out an idea and get people to consider it may use this. There's nothing wrong with doing so, as long as everybody understands what it is. Where we have a problem is when these materials are transported outside of their circle, and then people focus upon the miracles instead of the ideas. It doesn't matter if someone thousands of years ago named Lazarus is resurrected. What matters, according to Deuteronomy 13, is what the person says who does the resurrecting.

Jesus, too, mentions something along the same lines. He says (paraphrasing) even if someone comes back from the dead it won't cause anyone to repent. In short miracles don't prove anything. No, you can't take miracles literally. I mean, you can; but you can't take them as evidence of God's will despite the stories repeatedly claiming that people do. It is another literary device when they do that, because it is against the Law to believe such a thing. Maybe that sounds like touting the law or testing, but no its not in a culture where every thing you do all day is guided by regulations. Its a different way of living.

Miracles require the lawkeeper to test the words, the moral claims made. They are therefore a writing device in Hebrew literature, and they are not the only similar device. In other words when Hebrews 2:4 says "God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." it is challenging you to test the theological implications. It cannot imply that the claim is true because of miracles. The writer has got to know that, or they know nothing of the law.

Never, ever, ever would or could the gospel be proven through miracles. It would be an evil thing according to Deuteronomy 13. It should be presumed that the writers know this and are familiar with using miracles as a writing device. We who want to understand what they are writing about must understand the law as best we can.

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

Yes, its absolutely possible. Yes, miracles can and probably do happen. That doesn't mean that in the Bible we can take them as proofs of God's will.

 

[Ellen Brown]

A few approaches to this:

One...God the Creator invented the laws of nature. He can break them any time He feels like it.
Two...God the Creator either invented the laws of nature...and we don't know enough about them yet to tie down all the possibilities. I mean, for crying out loud; a virgin birth isn't exactly something we can't do ourselves now, is it? We understand the mechanics of procreation, and we can get a woman pregnant without having any fun first. One miracle down.
Three...well, I'm going with two.

The thing is, those who absolutely INSIST that miracles be a complete breakage of natural law, rather than a use of such law in a way not understood by the participants/viewers, are missing the point of them, I think.

Just for fun, when I was younger, I went about trying to figure out how we could duplicate the miracles that Jesus is credited for. I even walked on water myself once. Stupid boat shoes nearly dislocated my hips, but I did it.

Turning the water into wine...OK...but we know how to do that, too. we just don't do it as fast and we need some extra 'stuff' to pull it off, but I crossed that one off my list when I passed a shelf of 'instant mixers' in the supermarket; pour the stuff out, add vodka, and viola', a Moscow Mule. That was one of the times I was glad I don't drink alcohol.

Didn't manage the calming the seas....but don't scientists sometimes manage to 'seed' clouds to make them go ...elsewhere? As for resurrecting the dead...goodness. HOW many companies are out there freezing the heads of our dearly departed in the hope that science can eventually bring 'em back?

The OT miracles are dicier, of course....there is that splitting of the sea thing, and the making the sun go backwards, though science has pretty much figured out the plagues of Egypt. Sort of.

The upshot...or bottom line (look, I'm tired and I'm fooling around a bit here) is that yeah, we should take those miracles literally. Perhaps not put TOO much confidence in the reports, but figure that something happened, and yeah, it's within the realm of physical law; would have to be, if God were involved. He invented physical law, after all. It's just that we don't know enough yet. Channel Clarke's Laws, if you need to. His third one. (nobody remembers the first two anyway).

Then again, the people reporting them knew a whole lot less than we do, and most of 'em had lessons attached, so....metaphorically is OK, too.

Me? I believe 'em. They may not have happened precisely as described, but (shrug) they happened. Mostly.

I figure more will happen now and in the future, too. When they do, I'll thank God...and all the other people involved in 'em, as well.

For me, miracles are real and one of them happened to me, in a Mormon Baptismal Font, and I am thankful for it while not understanding it at all, not one single bit.

I had a lifelong bitterness and anger (rage actually) at the men in my childhood, who did evil, despicable things to me. I knew what Jesus the Christ said to believers that had not forgiven, and had prayed and begged God for help with it many, many times. I was asked to be Baptized into the Mormon Church and did so even though I knew that this issue was not resolved. On the day, I was Baptized, and I felt that nothing had happened, but wondered how God would resolve this issue? About two weeks later, I wakened in the morning and knew this rage and bitterness was gone. I was joyful. No psychologist that I know of will validate what happened.

Years later, it is still gone and I still do not understand God's mercy to me despite the fact that I found that the Mormons did not want me, so I left. It is still one of the largest unresolved questions I have in my life. I am thankful for his mercy.

 

[Jollybear]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

I think miracles are real, but there misunderstood.

Take for instance Jesus opening the eyes of the blind. Ok, the bible does not say specifically why they wer blind, only that they wer blind. We know theres many different reasons someone can be blind.

I think Jesus was very INTUNED with his suroundings and knew just what to apply.

He healed different blind people using different strategies. One guy he waited till he kept crying out "jesus son of david have mercy on me". Jesus kept ignoring him. I believe it was because it was to build the blind mans resolve and confidence first. The blind man kept shouting for him. Finally Jesus stops and has the man brought to him. Now hes ready to have his miracle.

A different blind man, Jesus spit on the ground and made mud and put it on the guys eyes and told him to go wash in a pool.

Very different. He was intuned.

Let me go back to what i said that miracles are misunderstood. Ill tell you a true story of this lady i knew at an old job. Home depot. She was first a casheir. She did fine. Then she moved up and worked in the volt or accounting.

Her boss was around her ALL day. And her boss was an idiot.

So, she was stressed out everyday. Anyway, what happened was the stress was getting so high, legions started to develop on her brain. Then more, and more. Finally it was making her dizzy at times. Well, more came, and gauss what? It spread to her eyes and she went COMPLETELY BLIND.

She had no choice but to take a leave of absence. As she was home away from the stress, the legions started to fade away. She started to see again.

So, she returns to work. Lo and behold, dang it all, she goes blind again.

Doctor told her quit her job or go to a different department. She did and her sight came back for good.

Miracles are real, just misunderstood the underlying details and gaps.

 

[Stevicus]

We are not speaking of TV miracles, right?

And it probably has nothing to do with Smokey Robinson either.

 

[dianaiad]

For me, miracles are real and one of them happened to me, in a Mormon Baptismal Font, and I am thankful for it while not understanding it at all, not one single bit.

I had a lifelong bitterness and anger (rage actually) at the men in my childhood, who did evil, despicable things to me. I knew what Jesus the Christ said to believers that had not forgiven, and had prayed and begged God for help with it many, many times. I was asked to be Baptized into the Mormon Church and did so even though I knew that this issue was not resolved. On the day, I was Baptized, and I felt that nothing had happened, but wondered how God would resolve this issue? About two weeks later, I wakened in the morning and knew this rage and bitterness was gone. I was joyful. No psychologist that I know of will validate what happened.

Years later, it is still gone and I still do not understand God's mercy to me despite the fact that I found that the Mormons did not want me, so I left. It is still one of the largest unresolved questions I have in my life. I am thankful for his mercy.

Those are miracles too. I'm not a bit averse to calling them that.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Those are miracles too. I'm not a bit averse to calling them that.

I still hurt, not being a member.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are so many good answers here with great insights.

My understanding is we are surrounded by miracles, we are ourselves miracles, every atom, cell, plant, animal is a miracle. That there is rain and sun and crops to feed all humanity is a miracle. Electricity is a miracle to be able to command nature and fly like a bird. Just about everything to me is a miracle. The bounties and blessings of God are never ending and never cease. The intricacy, the complexity, the organisation in the universe is a miracle to me. The coordination between the organs in the human body to produce a conscious being is a stupendous miracle.

But to me the greatest of all miracles are the Universal Educators, the Manifestations of God such as Jesus, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, the Bab and Baha’u’llah. These Beings are God’s greatest miracles and handiwork - Perfect Beings with perfect knowledge.

 

[George-ananda]

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

I don't see miracles as deviation from natural law but rather the application of additional forces not yet understood by science.

 

[Marcion]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

Many of the miracle stories are purely invented or exaggerated by early Christians in the myth making process. It is the same myth making process that you can see in Hinduism, Buddhism (stories about Buddha or saintly spreaders of Buddhism). At the base though are also some stories with some historically true elements. Its very hard to say though what is historical.

Atoms and more elemental particles are a form of consciousness temporarily frozen as it were in space and time. So the person who is at the heart of or controls consciousness, can outrun the laws of physics in certain ways such as by passing through walls, flying through the sky without wings, staying for a long time under the ground or under water, going through fire, travelling in a second over large distances. etc., etc.. Only Tantrics can develop such powers, but using them is detrimental and will make them degrade (perhaps this is illustrated in the Faust of Goethe?) especially when they use those powers for selfish puposes.

I believe Yeshua may have used his occult powers to demonstrate his Tantric mastership to a few of his disciples. I think the miracles of Christian saints were largely made up for the sake of devotion. The more mystic (the more Tantric) the saint was, the more likely parts of those stories may contain historically true elements.
Simon Magus was especially called so for his use of occult powers in a demonstrative way. He is said to have concidered himself Christ in the way Yeshua did.

 

[Tumah]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

While I'd definitely attribute another meaning to the "miracles" of the NT, your second question doesn't really make so much sense to me. The act of a miracle is the changing of natural laws. If the natural laws were mutable, it wouldn't be miraculous when they were changed as those events would also be natural.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you all for your excellent and thoughtful responses. I don't know if Jesus healed a blind man, but through the Power of His Teachings a man who is spiritually blind has insight. One who has strayed and lost his way (crippled) can walk the path of God. This appears to be the true miracle of the Teachings of Christ or any of the Great Educators. I have no doubt there is Creative Force (God) that enables any miracle to happen whether literally who spiritually. The Gospels are theological acounts from which we can draw inspiration. When we approach these Sacred texts as primarily historic, do we not lose sight opf the greater purpose?

 

[Dawnofhope]

While I'd definitely attribute another meaning to the "miracles" of the NT, your second question doesn't really make so much sense to me. The act of a miracle is the changing of natural laws. If the natural laws were mutable, it wouldn't be miraculous when they were changed as those events would also be natural.

Laws of physics enable us to confidently predict what will happen. If I drop an apple from my hand if will fall accelerating at a set rate until it crashes to the ground. The same forces are at work should I choose to walk upon water. It would be impossible not to be immersed in the water to some extent. Depending on how much air is in my lungs determines the extent to which I float. But I will not be able to walk on water as the Gospels would have us believe Jesus did. If this really happened then He somehow changed the unchangeable. It would therefore be a miracle.

I know what you think of the miracles in the NT but what of those recorded in the Torah? Did Moses really part the sea enabling His people to be freed and then destroyed the Egyptians who tried to pursue Him?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Many of the miracle stories are purely invented or exaggerated by early Christians in the myth making process. It is the same myth making process that you can see in Hinduism, Buddhism (stories about Buddha or saintly spreaders of Buddhism). At the base though are also some stories with some historically true elements. Its very hard to say though what is historical.

Atoms and more elemental particles are a form of consciousness temporarily frozen as it were in space and time. So the person who is at the heart of or controls consciousness, can outrun the laws of physics in certain ways such as by passing through walls, flying through the sky without wings, staying for a long time under the ground or under water, going through fire, travelling in a second over large distances. etc., etc.. Only Tantrics can develop such powers, but using them is detrimental and will make them degrade (perhaps this is illustrated in the Faust of Goethe?) especially when they use those powers for selfish puposes.

I believe Yeshua may have used his occult powers to demonstrate his Tantric mastership to a few of his disciples. I think the miracles of Christian saints were largely made up for the sake of devotion. The more mystic (the more Tantric) the saint was, the more likely parts of those stories may contain historically true elements
Simon Magus was especially called so for his use of occult powers in a demonstrative way. He is said to have concidered himself Christ in the way Yeshua did.

That's an egotistical view.

 

[Dawnofhope]

A few approaches to this:

One...God the Creator invented the laws of nature. He can break them any time He feels like it.
Two...God the Creator either invented the laws of nature...and we don't know enough about them yet to tie down all the possibilities. I mean, for crying out loud; a virgin birth isn't exactly something we can't do ourselves now, is it? We understand the mechanics of procreation, and we can get a woman pregnant without having any fun first. One miracle down.
Three...well, I'm going with two.

The thing is, those who absolutely INSIST that miracles be a complete breakage of natural law, rather than a use of such law in a way not understood by the participants/viewers, are missing the point of them, I think.

Just for fun, when I was younger, I went about trying to figure out how we could duplicate the miracles that Jesus is credited for. I even walked on water myself once. Stupid boat shoes nearly dislocated my hips, but I did it.

Turning the water into wine...OK...but we know how to do that, too. we just don't do it as fast and we need some extra 'stuff' to pull it off, but I crossed that one off my list when I passed a shelf of 'instant mixers' in the supermarket; pour the stuff out, add vodka, and viola', a Moscow Mule. That was one of the times I was glad I don't drink alcohol.

Didn't manage the calming the seas....but don't scientists sometimes manage to 'seed' clouds to make them go ...elsewhere? As for resurrecting the dead...goodness. HOW many companies are out there freezing the heads of our dearly departed in the hope that science can eventually bring 'em back?

The OT miracles are dicier, of course....there is that splitting of the sea thing, and the making the sun go backwards, though science has pretty much figured out the plagues of Egypt. Sort of.

The upshot...or bottom line (look, I'm tired and I'm fooling around a bit here) is that yeah, we should take those miracles literally. Perhaps not put TOO much confidence in the reports, but figure that something happened, and yeah, it's within the realm of physical law; would have to be, if God were involved. He invented physical law, after all. It's just that we don't know enough yet. Channel Clarke's Laws, if you need to. His third one. (nobody remembers the first two anyway).

Then again, the people reporting them knew a whole lot less than we do, and most of 'em had lessons attached, so....metaphorically is OK, too.

Me? I believe 'em. They may not have happened precisely as described, but (shrug) they happened. Mostly.

I figure more will happen now and in the future, too. When they do, I'll thank God...and all the other people involved in 'em, as well.

I entered a Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints for the first time over the weekend. They hosted our cities interfaith gathering. One of the missionaries wasted no time in offering me a book of Mormon.

 

[Marcion]

That's an egotistical view.

That is a meaningless derogatory remark if not properly explained.