Miracles

[Ellen Brown]

So, technically, that man could have been Jesus, also. How do you know? Just because Paul said so?

If I had been Satan, that is exactly what I would have done. Turn a bloodthirsty and slavery-friendly God, into a meek and sweet one. In order to harvest the greatest number of deceived souls. of course. He is not called the master deceiver for nothing, right?

Ciao

- viole

I wonder if the best proof that a God exists is the conduct of his followers?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony...you have the most AWESOME beard!

Ha ha, well done, my mother uses that tactic as well, she is a born again Christain.

Consider the miracle of who accepted Jesus when He gave a Message from God 2000 years ago.

I ask, did the popular Messianic expectations unfold in any way at all, that the Jews were expecting?

As such why would we think we are not prone to those errors?

P/S It is a beard grown for my wife, as she loves them

Stay well and happy, regards Tony

 

[Beth Stitely]

But once Satan is the master deceiver, anything you believe in about Jesus could be his work. It is actually self defeating.

Jesus actually answered this to the Religious Leaders who claimed that Jesus was defeating evil by the power of evil. Jesus said their logic was wrong because a house divided cannot stand. In addition, Jesus said many will be deceived, not all.
It's up to you if you accept this or not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In addition, Jesus said many will be deceived, not all.
It's up to you if you accept this or not

This stood out, as In that is the greatest miracle. Hearts that find the Love of God in God's New Messenger.

Many are called, few are chosen, takes on a greater meaning.

I wish you well, regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I wonder if the best proof that a God exists is the conduct of his followers?

We are to find God in all things, so why do we look for what is not of God?

This is a great miracle, a change of heart from predudices, to only looking for our oneness.

Regards Tony

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

I imagine the audience likely took them literally. However, I have a hard time believing the authors, trained in writing, did not understand what "tropes" were. Jesus' story is like a checklist of tropes and the author pick which ones they're going to check off.

The Four Gospels

Like, for the audience, curing the bleeding chick was probably about curing the bleeding chick, but it could also be just a metaphor that Jesus didn't care much for the taboo of touching bleeding women.

 

[Beth Stitely]

Ha ha, well done, my mother uses that tactic as well, she is a born again Christain.

Wow, sad to see a genuine comment is a "tactic". More surprised to it coming from a Baha'i.
Best wishes

 

[Dawnofhope]

Seeing that Christ Jesus is not bound by the laws of nature, for it was Christ Jesus who established the laws of nature himself.

For it was Christ Jesus who created all things.

Therefore Christ Jesus laid the foundations of the earth, thereby establishing the laws of nature himself.
Therefore Christ Jesus is not bound by the laws of nature.

Your argument appears to be:

'As Jesus is God incarnate, He created the universe, its laws, has dominion over all things, and can break any law. All things are possible for God (aka Jesus), so there is no reason to doubt anything written in the bible is anything other than literal.'

Is that correct?

Whether or not Jesus is God incarnate is another topic. The key issue is whether everything in the Bible should be taken literally including the recorded miracles. The problem with a literalist approach it the extent it ignores both science and reason.

The clearest examples are the conclusions of many literalist Christians that the earth is very young (no more than 10,000 years old) based on the Genesis account of creation and biblical geneologies. An example from the New Testament is a literal understanding of the ascension of Christ based on Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So it appears you have answered your own question.
A closer look at scripture reveals that the question was not whether Jesus performed miracles. (Even the opposition to Jesus agreed that miracles were being performed). The real question, however, was "under who's authority and power was Jesus performing these miracles?" Paul tells the Thessalonians that there will come a day when a man will again perform many great miracles, but this man will be working under evil power and authority and will come to deceive many.

Hi Beth,

Nice to see you back.

I always have answers as we both do. Whether or not they are correct or the best answers is another question.

We both acknowledge the Divine as opposed to satanic origins of the Teachings of Jesus. However, can we assume the Gospel writers were providing a literal historic account as opposed a theological account? Many Christians, rightly or wrongly are moving to a much less literal interpretation of the Bible. Many of course see the bible as the inerrant word of God in regards both the message and recording of history.

There are other well established religious traditions outside the realm of a Judeo-Christian perspective. These largest of these include Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Then there is the emergence of the Baha'i Faith. Are you suggesting all these religions/traditions are the creation of Satan?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wow, sad to see a genuine comment is a "tactic". More surprised to it coming from a Baha'i.
Best wishes

Woops, it is that bad Australian Humor I was brought up with. A veiled mucho thank you. Must change that habit!

Actually a lot do not see the funny side, all the while that is the intent, my wife still has troubles, but it is the humor I was brought up with. Also my daughter has it, much to her mother's demise. Was not meant to offend and as such a humble sorry face for you.



P/S Would like to hear what you had to say about what was offered back to consider.

Regads Tony

 

[viole]

I wonder if the best proof that a God exists is the conduct of his followers?

Well, what can I say?

I know Christians. They seldom jump with joy at the prospect to meet mr. Jesus soon, when the doctor tell them that they have irreversible cancer.

So, what should a rational skeptic think?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Jesus actually answered this to the Religious Leaders who claimed that Jesus was defeating evil by the power of evil. Jesus said their logic was wrong because a house divided cannot stand. In addition, Jesus said many will be deceived, not all.
It's up to you if you accept this or not.

Hi Beth,

from my vantage point all this has the same evidence of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round table. So, since I find it hard to believe in the powers of Excalibur then, by symmetry, I find it hard to believe in the powers of a Palestinian who is believed to have been able to multiply some fish, but not to save His own life. Which is however understandable, considering that His alleged awesome ultimate sacrifice lasted only two nights, which is a bit lame for an ultimate sacrifice worth the title.

Having said that, what makes you sure that your belief in a loving and caring God, vastly more different from the mysoginist, homophobic, slavist and surly God of the OT, is not the product of Satan's deception?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hello. Strictly speaking, that is not true. I think what you mean is that we do not observe any such changes now, nothing rigorously documented. But the latest research in cosmology, for example, strongly suggests they may have changed over time (from the early periods after the creation of our universe). This is not to say the 'miracles' in the bible happened (assuming a literal reading, which is, in my humble opinion, probably not the correct way to read much of the bible in the first place).
Peace

I have no doubt the way the universe operates has changed over billions of years. Einstein's theories of relativity upended centuries of a Newtownian worldview where the universe ran like clockwork in a very mechanistic and predictable manner. Nothwithstanding, the OP question is about clearly documented events in the bible where Jesus seemed to transcend or break certain laws. He broke the law of gravity by walking on water and ascending through the stratopshere to be with His Father in heaven. He turned water into wine and multiplied the loaves and fishes to feed the multitude. He cured the sick and cast out demons. He brought a man back from the dead and even managed to come to return to life Himself after being put to death through crucifixion. None of these events if Gospel accounts are to be taken literally are in harmony with science. I agree that a literal interpretation is not the best way to read the Bible. However many of your fellow Christans insist on a literal interpretation, claiming they are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Good for him/her!

Quick...how fast did s/he get to you? I think my fastest approach when I was a missionary was thirty seconds. I would have been faster, but I had to dodge around a toddler.

But yeah, an interfaith gathering would have been a good place to get one of those. I hope you also got all the goodies from every other faith that was there that day.

I remember an interfaith gathering that our own 'stake' hosted a few years ago. There were Wiccans who blessed the chapel, Methodists who sang blessings on it, Presbyterians who rang bells in it, a Muslim who called everybody to prayer in it, a Rabbi who brought his cantor to sing...that was my favorite for sheer beautiful music...(actually, my favorites were the Wiccans) and a bunch of Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics (monks from the local priory...they were great!) pretty much everybody but Jehovah's Witnesses, who were invited but didn't come.

Lots of Books of Mormon were passed out, and we made sure that everybody else had stuff to pass out, too. A good time was had by everybody except the Muslim, who had a huff because the Rabbi came on before him (or after him? I forget) .

Everybody else had a very nice day.

She was lightening fast. I had hardly blinked and inhaled to speak before an offer of my very own book of Mormon was presented. As one who is actively engaged in teaching about the Baha'i Faith I recognised in an instant the enthusiam and skill through which she had communicated her faith. Her abilities excelled my own meagre capacity by several orders of magnitude. She asked about the Baha'i Faith which she knew little about. Nor did she know much about Islam. I suppose when you have the truth, why waste your time learning about other faiths except as an opportunity to teach that truth?

While I don't believe that any of the line of prophets starting with Joseph Smith are prophets at all, you do believe in God, Jesus and the Bible. Adherents of your faith endeavour to live by high moral and that is impressive in this day and age. Beyond that, there is strong and clear support for interfaith activities. There was even an offer to help out with the garden in the Baha'i community when the gardener in our community became ill with cancer last year.

 

[Dawnofhope]

They are very nice and friendly people, and it tears at me that something that happens in their services hurts me so deeply. It wasn't until much later that I found out things that were not first told me.

I'm sorry to hear that you have been so deeply hurt in your associations with the Mormons. I've had some pretty hurtful comments made from Christians over the years. OTOH I like Christians including Mormons a lot. I think its all about learning to respect boundaries. I'd be extremely careful before becoming too involved with any religious group let alone signing up.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would say that it can be established as an “almost certain” historical fact that Jesus performed what others interpreted as miracles. Whether if these where actual miracles or some sort of trick or illusion is an open question.

Thank you for your post.

Jesus broke the law of gravity by walking on water and ascending through the stratopshere to be with His Father in heaven. He turned water into wine and multiplied the loaves and fishes to feed the multitude. He cured the sick and cast out demons. He brought a man back from the dead and even managed to come to return to life Himself after being put to death through crucifixion.

Which of these miracles could be established as almost certain historic fact and why?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Well, what can I say?

I know Christians. They seldom jump with joy at the prospect to meet mr. Jesus soon, when the doctor tell them that they have irreversible cancer.

So, what should a rational skeptic think?

Ciao

- viole

There is something IN me that says a Creator exists. The problem is that I just don't know of a belief system that perfectly expresses a description of that Creator. Perhaps the answer lies in Philosophy? And, there are lots of others who describe base human fears better than I. When the first sentient being existed, it is likely that he/she/it grew lonely and bored. When a companion to that being showed up is when the real trouble started. Who is in charge? Who gets what they want? What if one does not like the other? What's mine and what's yours? What if I want what's yours? What if I decide to hurt or even kill you?

It's been getting worse ever since.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'm sorry to hear that you have been so deeply hurt in your associations with the Mormons. I've had some pretty hurtful comments made from Christians over the years. OTOH I like Christians including Mormons a lot. I think its all about learning to respect boundaries. I'd be extremely careful before becoming too involved with any religious group let alone signing up.

Thank you. Hopefully I have learned...

 

[viole]

There is something IN me that says a Creator exists. The problem is that I just don't know of a belief system that perfectly expresses a description of that Creator. Perhaps the answer lies in Philosophy? And, there are lots of others who describe base human fears better than I. When the first sentient being existed, it is likely that he/she/it grew lonely and bored. When a companion to that being showed up is when the real trouble started. Who is in charge? Who gets what they want? What if one does not like the other? What's mine and what's yours? What if I want what's yours? What if I decide to hurt or even kill you?

It's been getting worse ever since.

Yes, what you experience is similar to what physicists experienced more than 100 years ago. They were so a priori convinced that there was some sort of ether providing a medium for the propagation of electromagnetic radiation, that they were just distorting everything so that this ether could still be justified. Until someone show them that by removing that a priori belief, things got much simpler.

So, you have to decide if removing your belief in a creator does not actually simplify things. I personally think it does. At least it gets nicely away with explaining why some injustice goes unpunished.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Dawnofhope]

Woops, it is that bad Australian Humor I was brought up with. A veiled mucho thank you. Must change that habit!

Actually a lot do not see the funny side, all the while that is the intent, my wife still has troubles, but it is the humor I was brought up with. Also my daughter has it, much to her mother's demise. Was not meant to offend and as such a humble sorry face for you.

View attachment 26812

P/S Would like to hear what you had to say about what was offered back to consider.

Regads Tony

Hi Tony,

Beth and I work together at a Christian medical centre called Servants Health centre. We often have chats about our respective faiths and have studied the Bible together.

https://www.shc.org.nz/about-us