Miracles

[QuestioningMind]

The Gospels record miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning?

Science has established unchanging laws of nature governing the phenomenal world. Is it possible to deviate from such laws allowing an opportunity for miracles to occur?

There's no verifiable evidence that anything supernatural can occur, so any reports of miracles should not be taken seriously.

 

[viole]

Thank you for your post.

Jesus broke the law of gravity by walking on water and ascending through the stratopshere to be with His Father in heaven. He turned water into wine and multiplied the loaves and fishes to feed the multitude. He cured the sick and cast out demons. He brought a man back from the dead and even managed to come to return to life Himself after being put to death through crucifixion.

Which of these miracles could be established as almost certain historic fact and why?

None of them. Obviously. They are just nice stories in a book, you know. Like the magical powers of Excalibur in the myths surrounding the lady of the lake.

The real miracle is that some adult people take them so seriously....

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yes, what you experience is similar to what physicists experienced more than 100 years ago. They were so a priori convinced that there was some sort of ether providing a medium for the propagation of electromagnetic radiation, that they were just distorting everything so that this ether could still be justified. Until someone show them that by removing that a priori belief, things got much simpler.

So, you have to decide if removing your belief in a creator does not actually simplify things. I personally think it does. At least it gets nicely away with explaining why some injustice goes unpunished.

Ciao

- viole

I think what we are supposed to do is very simple, has been defined in a number of different ways, but we don't want to follow instructions. When is the last time you read the instructions on how to do something?

I think I have trimmed off almost all of the fat and for me, it comes down to reading and trying to follow the 10 commandments, Micah 6:8, and loving the one who created us and loving our neighbor. Admittedly that can seem impossible at times, especially with the one upstairs who is having a party at 2:00 AM, or the one stealing your sheep.

And, it is embarrassing that I am not the best at following my own advice.

 

[Dawnofhope]

None of them. Obviously. They are just nice stories in a book, you know.

The real miracle is that some people take them so seriously....

Ciao

- viole

This thread has you fired up big time!

Perhaps the miracle is that a man who died a criminals death two thousand years ago after a minstry of only 3 1/2 years has had such a profound influence on the hearts and minds of so many. If we considered as well as the Christians, Muslims that see Christ has been an important prophet, we have over 55% of the world's population.

World’s largest religion by population is still Christianity

Consider also that Islam is set to over take Christianity as the largest religion on the planet in about 50 years while the over proportion of the worlds Christians will remain steady. That will take us to between 60 and 65%.

In regards the miracles, I don't believe we can establish with any certainty the historicity of anyone of them. They do of course contradict science so it is a matter of faith whether any of them literally happened.

 

[dianaiad]

She was lightening fast. I had hardly blinked and inhaled to speak before an offer of my very own book of Mormon was presented. As one who is actively engaged in teaching about the Baha'i Faith I recognised in an instant the enthusiam and skill through which she had communicated her faith. Her abilities excelled my own meagre capacity by several orders of magnitude. She asked about the Baha'i Faith which she knew little about. Nor did she know much about Islam. I suppose when you have the truth, why waste your time learning about other faiths except as an opportunity to teach that truth?

While I don't believe that any of the line of prophets starting with Joseph Smith are prophets at all, you do believe in God, Jesus and the Bible. Adherents of your faith endeavour to live by high moral and that is impressive in this day and age. Beyond that, there is strong and clear support for interfaith activities. There was even an offer to help out with the garden in the Baha'i community when the gardener in our community became ill with cancer last year.

Did you take us up on that gardening offer? I hope you did.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Did you take us up on that gardening offer? I hope you did.

I seriously considered the offer to be honest but didn't run with it in the end. Fortunately a couple of our community members have stepped up. We are a small community in my city of about 60 people, including many University students from out of town. If we can't find a sustainable way to maintain our Centre we shouldn't have it at all. It was great the Mormons offerred and all kudos you guys that you are providing services to assist communities.

 

[viole]

I think what we are supposed to do is very simple, has been defined in a number of different ways, but we don't want to follow instructions. When is the last time you read the instructions on how to do something?

Last week. It was about how to react when a magnet turns into metallic gas, because of a leak in super-conductivity.

I think I have trimmed off almost all of the fat and for me, it comes down to reading and trying to follow the 10 commandments, Micah 6:8, and loving the one who created us and loving our neighbor. Admittedly that can seem impossible at times, especially with the one upstairs who is having a party at 2:00 AM, or the one stealing your sheep.

I personally find it vastly easier to love someone who is 20,000 KM away. And even if I tend to have a certain respect for the alleged guy who created me, that respect is gone when I see who else He created.

And, it is embarrassing that I am not the best at following my own advice.

I would see that as a positive sign.

Ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony,

Beth and I work together at a Christian medical centre called Servants Health centre. We often have chats about our respective faiths and have studied the Bible together.

https://www.shc.org.nz/about-us

Great to hear. They would be fun chats. I rode the SBS train through some of NZ last week. They had a 13hr show of teain journey north to south.

It looks a lot like our Queensland Atherton tablelands in a lot of areas, except for the snow covered peaks.

Regards Tony

 

[Ellen Brown]

Last week. It was about how to react when a magnet turns into metallic gas, because of a leak in super-conductivity.



I personally find it vastly easier to love someone who is 20,000 KM away. And even if I tend to have a certain respect for the alleged guy who created me, that respect is gone when I see who else He created.



I would see that as a positive sign.

Ciao

- viole

Yes, humanity seems to be a chaotic cloud of hot air.

 

[blü 2]

Interestingly most people including most non-theist grant the existence of God is at least possible

I used to think something like this ─ that the odds were exquisitely small, but not zero.

But these days I think the idea of a real god is incoherent ─ has no definition of 'god' such that we could tell whether any real candidate were god or not. In parallel, there's no useful definition of 'godness', the real quality which a real real god would have and a fake real god would not.

So the 'existence of God' when a real god is intended has no real referent, has no meaning. (No problem with imaginary gods, of course ─ they're whatever you'd like them to be.)

So even most “non-theist” shouldn’t dismiss miracles by default, but rather they should provide positive arguments as for why the miracles reported in the gospels are lies, illusions, etc.

Were there a satisfactory definition of 'real god' on the table, your point might be valid. But meanwhile I don't think it is.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Great to hear. They would be fun chats. I rode the SBS train through some of NZ last week. They had a 13hr show of teain journey north to south.

It looks a lot like our Queensland Atherton tablelands in a lot of areas, except for the snow covered peaks.

Regards Tony

Why, oh why did I not go to live in NZ when I was thinking about it, rather than doing what I now heartily regret?

 

[viole]

This thread has you fired up big time!

I beg your pardon? That is normal stuff.

Perhaps the miracle is that a man who died a criminals death two thousand years ago after a minstry of only 3 1/2 years has had such a profound influence on the hearts and minds of so many. If we considered as well as the Christians, Muslims that see Christ has been an important prophet, we have over 55% of the world's population.

Yes, that is nothing short of a miracle.

To believe that a God saved humanity by taking a three days break to return as the master of the Universe, and consider that as something awesome, is quite remarkable. I admit I have no logical explanation for that.

Consider also that Islam is set to over take Christianity as the largest religion on the planet in about 50 years while the over proportion of the worlds Christians will remain steady. That will take us to between 60 and 65%.

Well, believing that flying horses can take prophets to heaven seems to take less credulity than believing that 1/3 fractions of God can resurrect and get airborne. They actually have a point. To each, its own.

In regards the miracles, I don't believe we can establish with any certainty the historicity of anyone of them. They do of course contradict science so it is a matter of faith whether any of them literally happened.

Science? We do not really need to disturb science with prophets hovering over water, get cab service to heaven on flying horses, or duplicating some fish, do we?

Yes, faith. The trust in things unseen. So unseen that are indistinguishable from not existing.

Ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why, oh why did I not go to live in NZ when I was thinking about it, rather than doing what I now heartily regret?

These events shape our lives and from these choices we learn may things.

I see the miracles in life, are when we use these events to change ourselves in a happy and joyful being, by finding the positives and become better people as a result.

Never to late to fulfill a wish, when God is in the heart. All the best, regards Tony

 

[viole]

Yes, humanity seems to be a chaotic cloud of hot air.

And if you believe we are in His image, then, well... I am sure you can do the math.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Faithofchristian]

Your argument appears to be:

'As Jesus is God incarnate, He created the universe, its laws, has dominion over all things, and can break any law. All things are possible for God (aka Jesus), so there is no reason to doubt anything written in the bible is anything other than literal.'

Is that correct?

Whether or not Jesus is God incarnate is another topic. The key issue is whether everything in the Bible should be taken literally including the recorded miracles. The problem with a literalist approach it the extent it ignores both science and reason.

The clearest examples are the conclusions of many literalist Christians that the earth is very young (no more than 10,000 years old) based on the Genesis account of creation and biblical geneologies. An example from the New Testament is a literal understanding of the ascension of Christ based on Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

maybe not for you the bible is not to taken literal.
But for me the bible is all literal.and to be taken literal.

 

[dianaiad]

I seriously considered the offer to be honest but didn't run with it in the end. Fortunately a couple of our community members have stepped up. We are a small community in my city of about 60 people, including many University students from out of town. If we can't find a sustainable way to maintain our Centre we shouldn't have it at all. It was great the Mormons offerred and all kudos you guys that you are providing services to assist communities.

Remember us if you get into trouble again. They will step up.

Just be careful. Sister Whosis just may have her own ideas about where to plant the hydrangeas.

 

[Hotcakes78]

Seeing that Christ Jesus is not bound by the laws of nature, for it was Christ Jesus who established the laws of nature himself.

Bible Mark 4:37-41--"
37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.

38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

For it was Christ Jesus who created all things.

Bible Colossians 1:16---"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

That everything being establish with a set of laws to govern them by.

The book of Psalm 104:5---" Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever"

Psalm 119:90--"Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth"

Therefore Christ Jesus laid the foundations of the earth, thereby establishing the laws of nature himself.
Therefore Christ Jesus is not bound by the laws of nature.

U really just stated that

Seeing that Christ Jesus is not bound by the laws of nature, for it was Christ Jesus who established the laws of nature himself.

Bible Mark 4:37-41--"
37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.

38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

For it was Christ Jesus who created all things.

Bible Colossians 1:16---"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him"

That everything being establish with a set of laws to govern them by.

The book of Psalm 104:5---" Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever"

Psalm 119:90--"Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth"

Therefore Christ Jesus laid the foundations of the earth, thereby establishing the laws of nature himself.
Therefore Christ Jesus is not bound by the laws of nature.

Did you really just stated that Jesus established the laws of nature? What about the countless people, animals, environments etc that were living long before him?

 

[Beth Stitely]

There are other well established religious traditions outside the realm of a Judeo-Christian perspective. These largest of these include Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Then there is the emergence of the Baha'i Faith. Are you suggesting all these religions/traditions are the creation of Satan?

I am not making that suggestion.
The point I was making was that, going back to the original question, the question by the Religious Leaders at that time was where Jesus was getting His power to perform the miracles. The Religious Leaders were wrong in their assumption of where Jesus was getting His power, however, they were right in asserting that deceptive miracles were possible, and this is confirmed in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. Jesus also warns that great signs and miracles that will be performed in order to deceive many.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am not making that suggestion.
The point I was making was that, going back to the original question, the question by the Religious Leaders at that time was where Jesus was getting His power to perform the miracles. The Religious Leaders were wrong in their assumption of where Jesus was getting His power, however, they were right in asserting that deceptive miracles were possible, and this is confirmed in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. Jesus also warns that great signs and miracles that will be performed in order to deceive many.

They are good points to make.

1/ It is certainly well documented in the gospels thet religious leaders of the day had attributed His Powers to Belzebub, the prince of the demons.
(Mark 3:22, Matthew 12:24-28, Luke 11:15-19 and Matthew 10:25).

2/ Christ warned of false 'Christs' or messiahs that would deceive many and perform great signs and wonders.
(Matthew 24: 24-25)

3/ Paul made similar warnings.
(2 Corinthians 11:13-15, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I would add that the New Testament teaches to seek for truth, not miracles.
(Matthew 12:9, John 8:32)

We should recognise true prophets by their fruits (not by their miracles)
(Matthew 7:16-20)

St Paul speaks of the fruits of the spirit as being good character and virtue.
(Galatians 5:22-23)

There seems to be two challenges:
1/ Recognise the true Christ
2/ reject the false Christ

As Jesus was the promised one any others that came over the next century or so were always going to be false.

Nearly two thousand years after Christ's Revelation, the church or Body of Christ has become hopelessly divided and corrupt. All the signs are there for Christ's return. Unfortunately despite Christ's admonition not to be swayed by miracles many Christians do just that. They place faith that Christ will appear with great signs and wonders.
(Matthew 24:29-30).

 

[Dawnofhope]

I beg your pardon? That is normal stuff.

Then you are not just an atheist but an antitheist.

Yes, that is nothing short of a miracle.

To believe that a God saved humanity by taking a three days break to return as the master of the Universe, and consider that as something awesome, is quite remarkable. I admit I have no logical explanation for that.

Well, believing that flying horses can take prophets to heaven seems to take less credulity than believing that 1/3 fractions of God can resurrect and get airborne. They actually have a point. To each, its own.

This is all one giant strawman argument, admittedly fuelled by many religious adherents. For many it is easy to have a faith in Jesus without recourse to a literal resurrection. I don't know where the flying horses are coming from?

Science? We do not really need to disturb science with prophets hovering over water, get cab service to heaven on flying horses, or duplicating some fish, do we?

Yes, faith. The trust in things unseen. So unseen that are indistinguishable from not existing.

While God may appear invisible the footsteps left by His Great educators, whether Christ, Moses, Muhammad or Krishna are unmistakeable.