Misogyny in Game of Thrones?

[Alceste]

I don't mind movies taking liberty with the books story. Some things don't really transfer easily and you get stuck with something like Lord of the Rings where a two hour story is stretched over nine hours and it's completely boring.

Actually the books were equally boring, l thought. The whole middle book was pointless.

 

[freethinker44]

Actually the books were equally boring, l thought. The whole middle book was pointless.

This is true. I didn't finish the first book and have yet to watch any of the movies all the way through. All I can handle is bits and pieces of it before I have to engage my brain with anything else.

 

[Poeticus]

In the book...She didn't and instead he just got drunk and raped her every night until her servant told her how to take charge and make it better for herself since it wasn't going to stop.

(emphasis mine)

No. Even various feminist bloggers were
disappointed that the TV series took the
slightly ambiguous scene from the book and
projected it - onscreen - as rape: click me.

Go back to the scene...the chapter ends
with a "yes", initiated by Khaleesi, herself -
she kinda got fed up with Drogo taking a
long time. It's chapter 11, btw.​

 

[freethinker44]

(emphasis mine)

No. Even various feminist bloggers were
disappointed that the TV series took the
slightly ambiguous scene from the book and
projected it - onscreen - as rape: click me.

Go back to the scene...the chapter ends
with a "yes", initiated by Khaleesi, herself -
she kinda got fed up with Drogo taking a
long time. It's chapter 11, btw.​

Did you read the book? She said yes because she knew she had to. She didn't like any minute of it and was terrified of it throughout her entire wedding. Here is an excerpt from the next chapter she is in. I don't remember it being as tender as the person in your link describes.

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Sounds like rape to me.

 

[Alceste]

Did you read the book? She said yes because she knew she had to. She didn't like any minute of it and was terrified of it throughout her entire wedding. Here is an excerpt from the next chapter she is in. I don't remember it being as tender as the person in your link describes.

Sounds like rape to me.

No, sounds like miserable sex with an inconsiderate partner. Rape is when one party does not consent.

 

[Poeticus]

Did you read the book? She said yes because she knew she had to. She didn't like any minute of it and was terrified of it throughout her entire wedding. Here is an excerpt from the next chapter she is in. I don't remember it being as tender as the person in your link describes.

Sounds like rape to me.

Sounds like you need to re-read
the first book, especially Ch.11.​

 

[freethinker44]

Sounds like you need to re-read
the first book, especially Ch.11.​

Whatever man, I'm clearly wrong and it was tears of joy she was crying as he woke her in the middle of the night and rode her like a horse while she buried her face in the pillow so he wouldn't hear her cries, which were also apparently cries of joy. Oh and the bruises were joyous bruises. :sarcastic

 

[Willamena]

In another thread a poster mentioned misogyny in Game of Thrones and I was genuinely surprised because I'm not seeing it. So I did a Google search and apparently there are a lot of people who feel it is misogynistic.

A lot of their complaints used specific examples of brutality against women, but it's a brutal show whether it's men, women, children, animals, etc, nothing is safe in Game of Thrones.

Another thing brought up as evidence of misogyny was the way Jeffrey treats women, but I actually think that's the opposite of misogyny because Joffrey is a typical one dimensional character and that dimension is evil. Nothing he does is to be considered good or moral, therefore Joffrey being misogynistic is actually misogyny is wrong.

Apart from the obvious misogynistic behavior that would be expected in a story set in medieval-like period with typical medieval laws and culture, let's discuss the misogyny in Game of Thrones. I've always felt that women were actually empowered in Game of Thrones. Arya, Catelyn, Daenerys, Melisandre, Ygrit, even Cersei, all very strong female characters, in fact I would almost safe the story is mostly about these characters.

Let's discuss.

I agree.

 

[freethinker44]

No, sounds like miserable sex with an inconsiderate partner. Rape is when one party does not consent.

Really? Not coerced at all? Because it was obvious to me that she was coerced, because being sold into marriage and terrified of your husband and crying yourself to sleep every night after your wedding day sounds like coercion to me.

It doesn't really matter though, I think what we were originally talking about was whether or not it was some misogyny the show producers added. And I don't think it was. I think if anything, with regards to this scene, the book is more misogynistic.

 

[Alceste]

Really? Not coerced at all? Because it was obvious to me that she was coerced, because being sold into marriage and terrified of your husband and crying yourself to sleep every night after your wedding day sounds like coercion to me.

It doesn't really matter though, I think what we were originally talking about was whether or not it was some misogyny the show producers added. And I don't think it was. I think if anything, with regards to this scene, the book is more misogynistic.

After she manages to teach Drogo how to screw properly, she becomes quite happy in her marriage, if you recall. And her initial misery is loneliness, helplessness, anger at her abusive brother and culture shock all mixed in with sexual frustration. In short, she starts out with some pretty major issues to deal with and - without giving too many spoilers away - conquers them all one by one. Her awful sex life is only the first of many issues she deals with, and she handles it in the same way she handles the rest of her challenges: with optimism and decisive action. With her husband, she proactively changes his attitude toward her from pure objectification to true partnership and mutual respect and admiration.

Totally doesn't come across in the TV series.

 

[freethinker44]

Totally doesn't come across in the TV series.

Right, because the TV series didn't dwell on it, they just showed it and moved on. It's one of those things that doesn't really transfer from the pages to the book really well. They could have spent an entire episode just exploring that, and as much as I'd love to see entire episodes to devoted to Daenerys, I think they did well with it, they showed it was extremely difficult for her and she overcame it. Didn't explain it as well as the book but, let's not forget that it's not a book.

The Hunger Games had similar problems from the book to the movie. I don't think they captured the nuances of her relationship with Gale and Peta. But without an internal narrator explaining it like the book did there is only so much you can do.

 

[Alceste]

Right, because the TV series didn't dwell on it, they just showed it and moved on. It's one of those things that doesn't really transfer from the pages to the book really well. They could have spent an entire episode just exploring that, and as much as I'd love to see entire episodes to devoted to Daenerys, I think they did well with it, they showed it was extremely difficult for her and she overcame it. Didn't explain it as well as the book but, let's not forget that it's not a book.

The Hunger Games had similar problems from the book to the movie. I don't think they captured the nuances of her relationship with Gale and Peta. But without an internal narrator explaining it like the book did there is only so much you can do.

I think they dealt terribly with her story, unnecessarily adding interminable, boring scenes of sexual objectification that aren't even in the book and almost completely eliminating her central narrative, which is her transition from a powerless trophy wife in a foreign land to the respected and adored leader of every tribe she encounters and every city she liberates. In the series, you get the impression that she attains her position by dangling the threat of her dragons over every adversary. In the book, that's not how she does it at all.

 

[freethinker44]

I think they dealt terribly with her story, unnecessarily adding interminable, boring scenes of sexual objectification that aren't even in the book and almost completely eliminating her central narrative, which is her transition from a powerless trophy wife in a foreign land to the respected and adored leader of every tribe she encounters and every city she liberates. In the series, you get the impression that she attains her position by dangling the threat of her dragons over every adversary. In the book, that's not how she does it at all.

I didn't really feel like the adored leader aspect of her character came out until after she killed the warlocks in that one oasis city (I forgot the name) after they tried to kidnap her and her dragons. Until then she was pretty weak, even in the book, IMO.

Also, the sex scenes were in the book, and even more explicit than in the show. I think the show is less objectifying of her than the book. In one of the books she walks around with her boob hanging out for half the book and in the show there is no mention of that. If they were going to sexually objectify her that would have been the perfect opportunity. I don't think being nude is automatically sexual objectification though.

 

[Alceste]

I didn't really feel like the adored leader aspect of her character came out until after she killed the warlocks in that one oasis city (I forgot the name) after they tried to kidnap her and her dragons. Until then she was pretty weak, even in the book, IMO.

Also, the sex scenes were in the book, and even more explicit than in the show. I think the show is less objectifying of her than the book. In one of the books she walks around with her boob hanging out for half the book and in the show there is no mention of that. If they were going to sexually objectify her that would have been the perfect opportunity. I don't think being nude is automatically sexual objectification though.

I'd be interested to hear what "explicit" sex scenes from the book you are referring to. IIRC, graphic sex scenes were never a habit of Martin's. And the boob thing had nothing to do with sexual objectification. It was a cultural tradition for the Dothraki, and the literary effect was to underline the awkwardness of adapting to the norms an alien culture. If it had been objectifying and pointless, HBO would no doubt have included it.

 

[freethinker44]

I'd be interested to hear what "explicit" sex scenes from the book you are referring to. IIRC, graphic sex scenes were never a habit of Martin's.

The one on her wedding day for one. Also, nearly all of Tyrions sex scenes were omitted from the show. Theon Greyjoy had a lot of sex in the books. I mean, it isn't 50 shades of grey explicit, but comparing the book to show, the book is more explicit.

 

[Alceste]

The one on her wedding day for one. Also, nearly all of Tyrions sex scenes were omitted from the show. Theon Greyjoy had a lot of sex in the books. I mean, it isn't 50 shades of grey explicit, but comparing the book to show, the book is more explicit.

I think your memory fails you. Yes, it was obvious that most of the characters in the book were banging somebody or other, but this was not established by just describing the sex as it occurred. We only got the before or the after, or in one case the moment of being caught in the middle of an incestuous act. The rest was left to the reader's imagination. Martin assumed, correctly, that incessantly dwelling on who put what where with whom is boring and does nothing to advance the story.

 

[freethinker44]

I think your memory fails you. Yes, it was obvious that most of the characters in the book were banging somebody or other, but this was not established by just describing the sex as it occurred. We only got the before or the after, or in one case the moment of being caught in the middle of an incestuous act. The rest was left to the reader's imagination. Martin assumed, correctly, that incessantly dwelling on who put what where with whom is boring and does nothing to advance the story.

No, my memory is fine.

That was as much as he had time to think, before Shae turned his head to kiss him. Her mouth was wet and hungry, and she did not even seem to see his scar, or the raw scab where his nose had been. Her skin was warm silk beneath his fingers. When his thumb brushed against her left nipple, it hardened at once. “Hurry,” she urged, between kisses, as his fingers went to his laces, “oh, hurry, hurry, I want you in me, in me, in me.” He did not even have time to undress properly. Shae pulled his **** out of his breeches, then pushed him down onto the floor and climbed atop him. She screamed as he pushed past her lips, and rode him wildly, moaning, “My giant, my giant, my giant,” every time she slammed down on him. Tyrion was so eager that he exploded on the fifth stroke, but Shae did not seem to mind. She smiled wickedly when she felt him spurting, and leaned forward to kiss the sweat from his brow. “My giant of Lannister,” she murmured. “Stay inside me, please. I like to feel you there.”​

The book is more explicit, IMO. Don't remember seeing this in the show. Don't remember Tyrion having sex at all, at least not depicted on screen, and not even close to being this explicit.

 

[Alceste]

No, my memory is fine.

The book is more explicit, IMO. Don't remember seeing this in the show. Don't remember Tyrion having sex at all, at least not depicted on screen, and not even close to being this explicit.

Ok, well, I don't think of one short paragraph in an 800 page book as dwelling on sex unnecessarily. On the odd occasion scenes are graphic, as this one is, there is a reason for it. We are meant to empathize with a shrimpy, rejected, scarred, ridiculed and deformed man who is accustomed to shallow relationships with whores is receiving what appears to be genuine affection for the first time (or perhaps the second, the first having ended badly). Plus, he's a premature ejaculator and she's being kind about it. This is character development, not pointless titillation.

Also, it sort of underlines the point that HBO is not depicting female sexual pleasure at all, opting instead to depict sex from a purely male fantasy POV. Hot women being used for sex as opposed to women receiving pleasure from a well hung dwarf.

 

[freethinker44]

Ok, well, I don't think of one short paragraph in an 800 page book as dwelling on sex unnecessarily. On the odd occasion scenes are graphic, as this one is, there is a reason for it. We are meant to empathize with a shrimpy, rejected, scarred, ridiculed and deformed man who is accustomed to shallow relationships with whores is receiving what appears to be genuine affection for the first time (or perhaps the second, three first having ended badly).

It's not just one short paragraph in one book, it is several in at least the first three, maybe not as much in the first but the next two definitely, after that I don't know. I recall most of Tyrions sex scenes being graphic like this, and a lot Theons, but I'm not going to go through the books to pull out all of them. I don't have the time for that.

It's occurred to me that none of this actually matters because the thread is about misogyny in the series and not differences between the book and the show which we could argue about for hours and get no where.

 

[freethinker44]

Also, it sort of underlines the point that HBO is not depicting female sexual pleasure at all, opting instead to depict sex from a purely male fantasy POV. Hot women being used for sex as opposed to women receiving pleasure from a well hung dwarf.

Oh come on, are you implying HBO doesn't like to show gratuitous sex if the woman gets pleasure from it? That's a little too "conspiracy theory" for me. I think they would be happy to show sex no matter where it comes from, also this is the network that hosts the shows Girls and Sex in the City, so that kind of blows that theory out of the water.