Misogyny in Game of Thrones?

[Drolefille]

So the truth is only true if the majority believes it now? I don't think using the creationists worst arguments is going to be a good defense strategy. Are you going to ask me "were you there?" next?

Stop deliberately misinterpreting people. She very clearly said that you failed to argue persuasively. Were I to respond to you the same way, I'd claim you called me a creationist.

That is NOT what she said. If you actually engage what people write then you will have better luck holding a conversation.

 

[freethinker44]

Stop deliberately misinterpreting people. She very clearly said that you failed to argue persuasively. Were I to respond to you the same way, I'd claim you called me a creationist.

I might have called you a creationist. It depends, every situation is different. That particular dialog was in reference to an earlier argument about whether or not the show adds gratuitous sex or nudity, not our last argument about whether or not it's OK to doubt someone's personal anecdotes, and I'm pretty sure I won that one by a landslide BTW. Anyways, I digress, I stand by what I said. It doesn't matter if every human being on this planet disagrees with me, it has absolutely no impact on whether or not it's true.

 

[Alceste]

So the truth is only true if the majority believes it now? I don't think using the creationists worst arguments is going to be a good defense strategy. Are you going to ask me "were you there?" next?

Lol, you've given your dubious and poorly argued personal opinions a hell of a promotion if you're going to start calling them "Truth". No wonder it's so hard for you to admit defeat.

Here's how a debate works: you argue for one position, someone else argues for the opposing position. At the end of the debate, if you have argued your position persuasively, you will see that many or even most people are agreeing with you. If they aren't, you've lost the debate.

 

[freethinker44]

Lol, you've given your opinions a hell of a promotion if you're going to start calling them "Truth". No wonder it's so hard for you to admit defeat.

IF you defeat I would admit it. Still waiting on that though.

Here's how a debate works: you argue for one position, someone else argues for the opposing position. At the end of the debate, if you have argued your position persuasively, you will see that many or even most people are agreeing with you. If they aren't, you've lost the debate.

You are either being willfully ignorant or completely clueless if you believe that. And again, it wouldn't matter if everyone in the world disagreed with me. The majority doesn't get to decide what the truth is. That may happen in your's and Kent Hovind's dream world but here in reality that just isn't how it works.

 

[Alceste]

IF you defeat I would admit it. Still waiting on that though.



You are either being willfully ignorant or completely clueless if you believe that. And again, it wouldn't matter if everyone in the world disagreed with me. The majority doesn't get to decide what the truth is. That may happen in your's and Kent Hovind's dream world but here in reality that just isn't how it works.

I think you might need a refresher on the difference between a fact and an opinion.

Here, try this:

Arthur . Games . Binky's Facts and Opinions | PBS Kids

 

[freethinker44]

I think you might need a refresher on the difference between a fact and an opinion.

Here, try this:

Arthur . Games . Binky's Facts and Opinions | PBS Kids

If it's not true than it should be easy to disprove. So whenever you're ready.

 

[Alceste]

If it's not true than it should be easy to disprove. So whenever you're ready.

If you want a repeat performance of your crushing defeat, just reread the thread.

 

[freethinker44]

If you want a repeat performance of your crushing defeat, just reread the thread.

So nothing then?

 

[Falvlun]

Look around. Is anyone agreeing with you? No? Then it seems you've failed to craft a persuasive argument. Points for effort, though.

I do agree the books do contain some pretty graphic sex scenes. I would also characterize what happened to Dany as rape.

I also agree that the show adds gratuitous sex scenes, like basically all of Littlefinger's brothel and Joffrey's interaction with the "ladies" (I really don't remember him being that perverted in the books. However, I am cringing at how they are going to depict Ramsay's sexual subjugation of Jane and Theon... that was some hard reading. I don't want to see it.)

I haven't decided whether I think the addition of the gratuitous brothel sex scenes as misogyny or not.

On one hand, it's hollywood and sex sells... especially scandalous sorts.

But on the other hand, does sex sell because of misogyny?
Perhaps. I'm not sure: after all, sex is a potent force in our lives, a powerful drive, and often a fascination. I don't know if our interest in it's on-screen portrayal necessarily indicates misogyny.

 

[Falvlun]

You'll note I didn't claim that GRRM was one of those who blindly incorporated it. I've in fact argued that he himself is not misogynistic and that although I believe an argument can be made that his books inadvertently promote the view, I don't particularly advance that myself. I got complained to for not making the arguments earlier in the thread.

There's absolutely merit in exploring these issues, as I noted with one of my other examples. I don't believe there's merit in slapping an easy default setting onto something rather than doing so thoughtfully. I've read books with both.


I didn't say that. I actually said he's quite a bit better at writing these issues then other authors. Although I'd be interested in reading into race in GoT as he created a very white world in his initial books. (Not sure how much has imroved). And yet it has been the case with many white male straight authors (and then white female straight and so on) that many have taken the lazy way of assuming everyone's experiences are like theirs, and created a very white male fantasy world over and over again. I've been reading a lot of older sci-fi and fantasy lately that only emphasizes this. In contrast I deliberately read more diverse modern fiction. As white men dominated the field and still do outside of YA, their perspective dominates SF/F still. It's getting better though.

.
Many men are. I'm not responsible for their alienation. If they no longer believe in the equality of men and women because I point out men write from a place of privilege - as that's the topic here, talk to me about heterosexism in rom-fantasy sometime if you want to know my thoughts - well those people weren't really there in the first place.

I'd agree, I don't always think Martin gets into their heads well, but overall they're quite good.



Yeah, I'm aware of the quote. Which is why the worst thing I've said about him is that he sometimes is bad about being in women's heads and that writing a white male dominated fantasy world be neutral for him. I didn't accuse him of sexism or misogyny or being a big fat doodoo head. I'm a fan, just not a fangirl.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[freethinker44]

I haven't decided whether I think the addition of the gratuitous brothel sex scenes as misogyny or not.

I don't even know that I would call them gratuitous. It's not completely unexpected to see people having sex in a brothel. And there are many instances in the book where there is graphic sex/nudity that was cut out of the show. So at any rate, I don't think they are intentionally adding scenes and nudity to sex up the show more than the book, because if they wanted to sex up the show they didn't need to add anything at all, all they had to do was include the scenes they cut from the book.

 

[Alceste]

I do agree the books do contain some pretty graphic sex scenes. I would also characterize what happened to Dany as rape.

I also agree that the show adds gratuitous sex scenes, like basically all of Littlefinger's brothel and Joffrey's interaction with the "ladies" (I really don't remember him being that perverted in the books. However, I am cringing at how they are going to depict Ramsay's sexual subjugation of Jane and Theon... that was some hard reading. I don't want to see it.)

I haven't decided whether I think the addition of the gratuitous brothel sex scenes as misogyny or not.

On one hand, it's hollywood and sex sells... especially scandalous sorts.

But on the other hand, does sex sell because of misogyny?
Perhaps. I'm not sure: after all, sex is a potent force in our lives, a powerful drive, and often a fascination. I don't know if our interest in it's on-screen portrayal necessarily indicates misogyny.

I obviously agree that there is sex in the books, but as I said before it is generally very briefly described (maybe a paragraph, takes a couple of seconds to read) and always contributes to story and / or character development. By contrast, all those naked women being used for sex added in by HBO SUBTRACT from story and character development by wasting valuable minutes of screen time on images of naked women who are usually not even named, let alone characters we want to follow the storylines of.

I don't remember Joffrey being that pervy either. I think in the books he liked ordering someone else to hit Sansa for him. I think HBO took his sadistic treatment of her and decided it wasn't titillating enough, so got him into using weeping, naked, nameless prostitutes for target practice. I have a hard time not considering that misogynistic.

There's one sex scene in particular I'm also not looking forward to - a gang rape is on the horizon. I didn't like reading it and I'm not going to like watching it either. I'm already concerned HBO is going to linger on it and try to make it as titillating as possible because of their record of gratuitous fanservice in that show. If I were producing it, I wouldn't even show it. There are other ways to convey what happens to that character without having to go there.

 

[freethinker44]

I don't remember Joffrey being that pervy either. I think in the books he liked ordering someone else to hit Sansa for him. I think HBO took his sadistic treatment of her and decided it wasn't titillating enough, so got him into using weeping, naked, nameless prostitutes for target practice. I have a hard time not considering that misogynistic.

I think it was misogyny on Joffrey's part, but I don't think the scene is misogynistic. Everything Joffrey says and does is unethical so his scenes are almost an example of what not to do. I took it as the writers illustrating that this treatment of women is wrong. All Joffrey's scenes are like that. Him shooting random poor people with his cross-bow isn't the show display contempt for the poor, they are saying if you act like this you are an evil *******.

 

[Alceste]

I think it was misogyny on Joffrey's part, but I don't think the scene is misogynistic. Everything Joffrey says and does is unethical so his scenes are almost an example of what not to do. I took it as the writers illustrating that this treatment of women is wrong. All Joffrey's scenes are like that. Him shooting random poor people with his cross-bow isn't the show display contempt for the poor, they are saying if you act like this you are an evil *******.

Whatever. The book version of Joffrey was better. He didn't need to be a serial killer of prostitutes. I mean really! Half the shows on TV are about serial killers of prostitutes or other vulnerable women. How derivative and unoriginal can HBO get? Joffrey had his own unique perversion: ordering people to hurt or kill other people. That was plenty creepy. The added "oh and he's a serial killer of prostitutes TOO!" was unnecessary and made his character far less believable.

 

[freethinker44]

Whatever. The book version of Joffrey was better. He didn't need to be a serial killer of prostitutes. I mean really! Half the shows on TV are about serial killers of prostitutes or other vulnerable women. How derivative and unoriginal can HBO get? Joffrey had his own unique perversion: ordering people to hurt or kill other people. That was plenty creepy. The added "oh and he's a serial killer of prostitutes TOO!" was unnecessary and made his character far less believable.

It was a little over the top, but I saw it as kind of a trade off for the scene where he has Sansa beaten in the palace, which was much more horrific in the book than the show. That and they needed their big "shocker" moment that they put on every season and let's face it, book 2 didn't really have that. I don't think I would use the phrase serial killer of prostitutes, as far we know he only killed the one girl and even if it was two serial killer is stretching it a little.

They did over-do that scene but I wouldn't say it's indicative of the show being misogynistic. Now if that was Tyrion or Robb torturing prostitutes then yes, totally misogynistic, because they're the good guys, but Joffrey? No, he's a horrible person who does horrible things, but they could have toned it down a bit.

 

[Gehennaite]

Yeah, hating, objectifying, and oppressing me for my chromosomes/gender/secondary sexual characteristics is totally justifiable. I should just get over it.

Hatred is simply a feeling. Not all misogynists are looking to objectify or oppress women; since they do a pretty good job doing it to themselves (i.e. pornographers, prostitutes, etc.).

And in the spirit of your argument, I would like to entirely dismiss your assertion as false based on your gender. What do you think of this line of reasoning?

You don't believe certain expressions of hatred, such as misogyny, can be logically justified?

I'd like you to relive my childhood. I was psychologically tormented by adult females. I can't help that my neurological response to the female gender is negative. It's embedded.

 

[Falvlun]

I'd like you to relive my childhood. I was psychologically tormented by adult females. I can't help that my neurological response to the female gender is negative. It's embedded.

Yeah, actually you can. Just like you don't hate all children because a couple kids bullied you. Or, just like you don't hate all men because you got into a fight with a man before. Or, just like you don't think all white guys are serial killers because Jeffrey Dahmer was one.

Overgeneralization is not a rational response. You've had bad experience with some women. That doesn't justify a hatred of woman or misogyny.

 

[Drolefille]

I'd like you to relive my childhood. I was psychologically tormented by adult females. I can't help that my neurological response to the female gender is negative. It's embedded.

Explanations don't excuse. I know people who were also abused by women and have chosen not to generalize their hatred to all women. Or have sought therapy to work on it.

Either you're a slave to your past or you're capable of making choices that can direct you to a new place. I've known too many people who can and do make those choices to believe the former.

Also, I love how only women degrade themselves in porn or in prostitution. And that justifies misogyny. Men do both these things. Either hate everyone equally and look down your nose at them too, or give up misogyny as illogical.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You don't believe certain expressions of hatred, such as misogyny, can be logically justified?

I'd like you to relive my childhood. I was psychologically tormented by adult females. I can't help that my neurological response to the female gender is negative. It's embedded.

No, I don't believe misogyny is logically justified, even if some women have done harmful things to other people. Many men have as well; does that mean I should hate all men for it? No. Does the fact that some of the most hateful things I have ever heard about certain groups I identify with, including support for killing people like me, have come from men mean I have a logical justification to hate all men? Again, no. Some people say and do harmful things; it doesn't mean all or even most other people are to be hated and vilified for it.

I was exclusively tutored by women throughout most of middle school as well as throughout a good deal of elementary school. If it hadn't been for those women, I wouldn't have known nearly as much as I do now. I probably wouldn't have even learned to read, since the person who taught me that is a woman.

Now, since you seem to believe that personal experiences can be a logical justification for the statements one makes about all members of a particular gender, why would you pick negative experiences and assume all women are like that instead of picking positive ones? I think saying that all women are great people would be just as much of a logically unjustified statement as saying that all of them are less intelligent than men, or that all women are unkind, hateful people. Do you think I would be justified in stating that all women are great and kind people like the ones I mentioned above?

 

[dawny0826]

In another thread a poster mentioned misogyny in Game of Thrones and I was genuinely surprised because I'm not seeing it. So I did a Google search and apparently there are a lot of people who feel it is misogynistic.

A lot of their complaints used specific examples of brutality against women, but it's a brutal show whether it's men, women, children, animals, etc, nothing is safe in Game of Thrones.

Another thing brought up as evidence of misogyny was the way Jeffrey treats women, but I actually think that's the opposite of misogyny because Joffrey is a typical one dimensional character and that dimension is evil. Nothing he does is to be considered good or moral, therefore Joffrey being misogynistic is actually misogyny is wrong.

Apart from the obvious misogynistic behavior that would be expected in a story set in medieval-like period with typical medieval laws and culture, let's discuss the misogyny in Game of Thrones. I've always felt that women were actually empowered in Game of Thrones. Arya, Catelyn, Daenerys, Melisandre, Ygrit, even Cersei, all very strong female characters, in fact I would almost safe the story is mostly about these characters.

Let's discuss.

I haven't watched Game of Thrones since the second season, but, one of the things I liked about it was Danerys Targaryen's character and her rise to strength (at least in the first of couple of seasons). There were others even in the first season that were depicted as strong women treated as equals by the men in their lives.

From what I've seen, read and heard from others - I don't see misogyny. I see evidence that the world in which Game of Thrones is based, may be patriarchal. But, clearly, women are capable of taking a stand against such construct in the show.