Misogyny in Game of Thrones?

[freethinker44]

Not always. There are a lot of factors involved, one of which is how extraordinary the claim is.

And I thought your claim was pretty extraordinary, so I doubted it.

That's abnormal. Most people file sexism in the same category as "what I had for breakfast". We know sexism is commonplace just as we know most people had something for breakfast, so we're not catapulted into irrational fits of doubt when they tell us what it was.

I'm not saying that sexism isn't commonplace. I'm not even doubting most of the posts in your link are true, and I still don't even know how a site about sexism has anything to do with whether or not it is "ridiculous" and "unreasonable" to doubt your personal claims. I'm saying they're trivial at best. A handful of them were good, but most of the ones I read, and I skipped the longer ones as you said, most of those bordered on petty. I mean, one lady expressed feigned outrage over something a 5 year old said, another said didn't experience sexual assault but expressed how she was afraid to do business alone with men, which is itself a sexist statement.

I'm not saying those things didn't happen, I'm saying I don't think they are legitimate sexism.

 

[Drolefille]

I looked at them, they don't seem to have anything to with anything though. Like we were talking and you just start inserting random statistics as if it proves something. But I wasn't arguing against the statistics so I ignored it.

You don't believe the stories of sexual harassment posted, so I linked two sites talking about sexual harassment - one that's an advocacy site and one that was purely about the numbers in the workplace. Those are pretty much exactly what we're talking about.

You doubted one story. You doubted a lot of stories - and dismissed them as "first world problems." Well yeah, sexism is a first world problem. It's a whole world problem. I mean it's nice not to be considered property and all, but that doesn't mean I'm cool with being catcalled. And lets think about this, you put your first person experience as a man over that of the first person experience of a woman when it came to sexual harassment of women. That's plain illogical. Logic, or skepticism, might have you doubting that your evidence, your personal experience that you cited, was representative. You can't in one breath say "I don't deny that it happens" and in the other dismiss every example anyone provides you without basically denying that it happens or that it matters.

Wrong, I haven't posted any evidence at all.

Talk about missing the point.

Great, we're down to insults. I usually claim victory when people resort to name calling/personal insults. So.... yay me, WINNING.

Another example of ignoring evidence based on what you want to believe.
Proving our point here, really.

 

[Drolefille]

From the everyday sexism site - the first five entries:

While having a late night, rousing conversation, I was told by the man I was speaking to that I was "very angry", "emotional" and did not "seem like a happy person". We were having lively debate and I was passionately discussing something I believed in as a feminist and that's when for him, I turned into an angry feminist. I asked him if, as a man, when he voiced his opinion strongly and forcefully if people ever asked him why he was angry and unhappy?

Yep. This sucks, and it's sexist. If we're passionate and disagree, we're b***hy or "harpies" or any number of other things. The message? Shut up.

Terrified 2013-12-14 04:01
I am sixteen. I used to live to get a boy's attention, reveling in anything nice he had to say about me or my body—I have never been in a relationship before, but I assure you, I am not as innocent as I wish to say I was. Now I realize I was stupid— just an insecure girl falling into a trap. A trap that could potentially ruin me and the way I felt about myself. I was at a local ace hardware store with my twin sister, trying to get new keys made for the new locks at our house. It was the middle of July of this year(2013) , and it was in the middle of a dry spell accompanied by 100+ degrees. It was scorching outside. I was in shorts, of course, and a tee that felt snug on my chest, but it was just another trip to the store, right? I'd be in and out fast.

When she and I got there, we went to the counter and began speaking with a friendly looking man who appeared to want to do nothing but help us 'young ladies' out. We got our keys made, but as he was handing me the last one, he let go too early, and the key clattered to the floor, inches from my flip-flopped toes. The man said, "Oops, will me. My mistake," but he made no motion to pick it up. So I politely picked it up for him, making the bend over as UN-provocative as possible. It was quick , but not quick enough. I found him staring at my chest and my legs, his eyes drinking in my whole body, and I saw a look in them( a hunger, you could say)that I'd never seen, and it scared me. I was terrified. I had never taken the thought of rape seriously— I'd had the luck of never have been scared of it before. But then I was scared. I understood then, what real fear was like. We paid for our keys, but I could still feel his eyes following my every move. If it hadn't been for my sister there, I don't know what would have happened...

1st - the "make her bend over so I can look, OOPS" game. One of the least fun games ever invented. I've watched dudes crack up over this.

2nd - the stare. Ugh. If you haven't been looked at by someone who has no interest in your existence as a person other than as a piece of meat, this is nearly impossible to understand. It's like you're being mentally put into their bed, or whatever other lovely mental picture they're putting together. It feels violating and it typically reminds you that this person is probably physically stronger than you and COULD harm you if they tried. And they look like they want to.

P 2013-12-14 03:04
I am a college student but sexism started way before that. When I was in third grade, my family moved to a richer area with a better school district. There a kid in my class who would always touch my butt or "accidentally" brush my boobs. He did this to my friend too. It wasn't until she told the teacher that I did too, and all he had to say was "i'm sorry".
When I was in 8th grade, during a health class, a group of boys asked me to stretch for them so they could look at my boobs,and even though I kept saying no, they asked and pestered me for about five minutes till I i just ignored them. One day in college, I was eating lunch with my sister and her friends when this guy kept changing tables near us to ogle me.He was a grad student which made him about seven to six yrs older than men. He approached me the next day and tried to tell me how cute I was, when I was alone. After I didn't respond he walked away. Now whenever he sees me he ogles my body like he has a right to. I make sure I am always with friends whenever I see him. I 18 yrs old. I don't want to worry about some guy wanting to drag me into some dark place and rape me. I get scared when I am in closed spaces with just guys. Its not a compliment if you look my body up and down.

Sexual assault - being groped is assault, even when it's 3rd grade.
Sexual harassment- but it's just boys being boys right? No, 8th graders know better, and it's still harassment.
That creep factor again - This is all about power and control.

Heidi Chiu 2013-12-14 02:49
Some guys at my school compiled a rating list on an edexcel spreadsheet of all the girls at my school, rating them on their looks and abs, estimating their weight then calculating some sort of average. The averages then corresponded with 50 as ‘average’, 40 as ‘spose since I’m desperate’, 30 ‘I would if I was drunk’ and 0 as ‘disgusting like ******* awful’
The list of girls was then split into four categories, green being ‘the top 10’, yellow being ‘good’, white being ‘mediocre’ and red as ‘poor’.
They then had the audacity to put all our Facebook and twitter links beside our names and for those they couldn’t find or didn’t feel were ‘worthy’ of them to go find them had ‘not worth getting’ beside whichever social profile they couldn’t/didn’t want to find.

Yeah this is harassment, I don't know how you could think it isn't.

Alexandra 2013-12-14 02:32
In college, I picked up a drink from the bar staff and turned to walk away. The guy next to me, some frat boy, grabbed my ***. I told my friend to wait, and we stood right behind him. He turned around a few seconds later. I originally planned to just tell him to go **** himself, but when he saw me and smirked, I threw my drink in his face and punched him straight in the Adam's apple. Two notes: vodka burns your eyes, and apparently a fist in the Adam's apple will not only put a man on the floor, he'll throw up everywhere. For those of you who go clubbing, keep that in mind. I had NO more problems in that club, ever again. The sad part is, he was the fourth or fifth guy who grabbed me that night, and he was just the one who snapped my last nerve.

Assault is wrong, no matter what. But how ridiculous is that no other response worked - one would presume she tried the "f*** off" previously if that was her 'go -to'. You have to hit someone to keep them from sexually assaulting you. And yes, grabbing butts and boobs is sexual assault.


That was the first five stories, no picking and choosing. And you saw triviality, and pettiness.

Sexism and harassment come in small doses as well as large ones. If you couldn't find any of those to be harassment, then you are in fact denying its existence because you're redefining harassment to be things YOU think are important.

 

[freethinker44]

You don't believe the stories of sexual harassment posted, so I linked two sites talking about sexual harassment - one that's an advocacy site and one that was purely about the numbers in the workplace. Those are pretty much exactly what we're talking about.

You doubted one story. You doubted a lot of stories - and dismissed them as "first world problems." Well yeah, sexism is a first world problem. It's a whole world problem. I mean it's nice not to be considered property and all, but that doesn't mean I'm cool with being catcalled. And lets think about this, you put your first person experience as a man over that of the first person experience of a woman when it came to sexual harassment of women. That's plain illogical. Logic, or skepticism, might have you doubting that your evidence, your personal experience that you cited, was representative. You can't in one breath say "I don't deny that it happens" and in the other dismiss every example anyone provides you without basically denying that it happens or that it matters.



Talk about missing the point.


Another example of ignoring evidence based on what you want to believe.
Proving our point here, really.

What point? Really, what point are you trying to make? How does a couple web pages about casual sexism and a web page about sexual harassment statistics have to do with how "unreasonable" and "ridiculous" it is to doubt one persons single personal experience. If you think I'm denying sexism exists, please post the quote where I said sexism doesn't exist. Seriously, let's end this right here and now and post a quote from me saying sexism doesn't exist.

 

[Drolefille]

What point? Really, what point are you trying to make? How does a couple web pages about casual sexism and a web page about sexual harassment statistics have to do with how "unreasonable" and "ridiculous" it is to doubt one persons single personal experience. If you think I'm denying sexism exists, please post the quote where I said sexism doesn't exist. Seriously, let's end this right here and now and post a quote from me saying sexism doesn't exist.

Again you didn't simply deny one person. ALSO, however, you used YOUR personal experience to do so, which makes no logical sense whatsoever.
AND:

If you couldn't find any of those to be harassment, then you are in fact denying its existence because you're redefining harassment to be things YOU think are important.

You can't rewrite history and pretend it was just that Alceste's story was SO unbelievable. It was quite a bit more than that. Although personally I find the former equally illogical. When similar stories and statistics that support the likelihood of any one anecdote being true are posted you want to revert to claiming it was JUST Alceste.

 

[Alceste]

Again you didn't simply deny one person. ALSO, however, you used YOUR personal experience to do so, which makes no logical sense whatsoever.
AND:


You can't rewrite history and pretend it was just that Alceste's story was SO unbelievable. It was quite a bit more than that. Although personally I find the former equally illogical. When similar stories and statistics that support the likelihood of any one anecdote being true are posted you want to revert to claiming it was JUST Alceste.

It's especially hilarious given my nature. Dishonesty is not something I'm often accused of, IRL. If anything, I have the opposite problem. I've had to work on keeping my genuine thoughts and feelings to myself sometimes due to pleading from both my husband and my closest friend. Lol.

 

[Drolefille]

It's especially hilarious given my nature. Dishonesty is not something I'm often accused of, IRL. If anything, I have the opposite problem. I've had to work on keeping my genuine thoughts and feelings to myself sometimes due to pleading from both my husband and my closest friend. Lol.

ZOMG 1st world problems.

 

[Alceste]

ZOMG 1st world problems.

I know, right?

 

[Debater Slayer]

It is pretty far off topic, huh? I think most of the thread has been off topic.

Since this thread's main topic is sexism depicted in a TV show set in medieval times, I do have to question after this whole exchange how much sexism we really need to see in fiction when there are people still denying accounts of sexual harassment and sexism happening nowadays. Who needs medieval depictions when we're not even able to get everyone to agree about how common sexual harassment is today, right?

 

[Alceste]

Since this thread's main topic is sexism depicted in a TV show set in medieval times, I do have to question after this whole exchange how much sexism we really need to see in fiction when there are people still denying accounts of sexual harassment and sexism happening nowadays. Who needs medieval depictions when we're not even able to get everyone to agree about how common sexual harassment is today, right?

I love the way you tied it all together! Nice work!

 

[Drolefille]

Since this thread's main topic is sexism depicted in a TV show set in medieval times, I do have to question after this whole exchange how much sexism we really need to see in fiction when there are people still denying accounts of sexual harassment and sexism happening nowadays. Who needs medieval depictions when we're not even able to get everyone to agree about how common sexual harassment is today, right?

It's a double edged sword. "isms" - racism, sexism, religious intolerance can be great story telling tools. They can also be left behind more or less unintentionally by writers that just sort of accept the status quo. Or who don't experience those 'isms' so don't really think about them - GRRM doesn't have to personally deal with misogyny or racism, so writing a really white/male fantasy (although again I'd argue that he actually does better at this than some) is like writing a "normal" fantasy to him.

Contrast this with the novel Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisen - another completely non-Earth world, with a main character who is mixed race and any non-pure bloods are looked down upon by the ruling family. But those races don't have anything to do with our ideas of race and there isn't any inherent sexism within the ruling family's culture - either men or women can be heirs and both are equally ruthless. The protaganist's culture and surrounding cultures have very strong gender roles.

This is using sexism or racism to tell a story and make a point, not just incorporating it blindly because that's how things were. That's the strong difference to me.

 

[Falvlun]

t's a double edged sword. "isms" - racism, sexism, religious intolerance can be great story telling tools. They can also be left behind more or less unintentionally by writers that just sort of accept the status quo. Or who don't experience those 'isms' so don't really think about them - GRRM doesn't have to personally deal with misogyny or racism, so writing a really white/male fantasy (although again I'd argue that he actually does better at this than some) is like writing a "normal" fantasy to him.

Contrast this with the novel Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N.K. Jemisen - another completely non-Earth world, with a main character who is mixed race and any non-pure bloods are looked down upon by the ruling family. But those races don't have anything to do with our ideas of race and there isn't any inherent sexism within the ruling family's culture - either men or women can be heirs and both are equally ruthless. The protaganist's culture and surrounding cultures have very strong gender roles.

This is using sexism or racism to tell a story and make a point, not just incorporating it blindly because that's how things were. That's the strong difference to me.

I think it's a rather unfair characterization to claim that Martin just "blindly incorporated" misogyny in TSOIAF. Misogyny in the series furthers the story, contributes to the background feel of the world, and often highlights the very imperfection of it. Sure, you can claim that he could have written a story without misogyny, as others have, but that isn't the story he had to write. I think that's a rather naive, and mega-restrictive, view of how stories should be written. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a world wear authors couldn't explore worlds in which misogyny existed, and the effects it had upon the characters, nor do I think that authors who choose those sorts of worlds should be criticized just because of that.

I also think it rather sexist to claim that simply because he is a white male, he therefore can't really understand these issues, and therefore included the misogyny simply out of ignorance or a lack of empathy. This is just hogwash. Many men out there are quite empathetic to the feminist cause-- and I would claim that Martin is one of them-- and all sentiments like those in your post do is further alienate them.

I have very much enjoyed the female characters in this series. They can hardly be claimed to fit the traditional female role of weak and in need of saving, or merely interested in dudes and dresses. They are dynamic, real woman, with a wide variety of personalities, ambitions, and actions.

I've loved this quote by him:

(Image from imgur)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think it's a rather unfair characterization to claim that Martin just "blindly incorporated" misogyny in TSOIAF. Misogyny in the series furthers the story, contributes to the background feel of the world, and often highlights the very imperfection of it. Sure, you can claim that he could have written a story without misogyny, as others have, but that isn't the story he had to write. I think that's a rather naive, and mega-restrictive, view of how stories should be written. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a world wear authors couldn't explore worlds in which misogyny existed, and the effects it had upon the characters, nor do I think that authors who choose those sorts of worlds should be criticized just because of that.

I also think it rather sexist to claim that simply because he is a white male, he therefore can't really understand these issues, and therefore included the misogyny simply out of ignorance or a lack of empathy. This is just hogwash. Many men out there are quite empathetic to the feminist cause-- and I would claim that Martin is one of them-- and all sentiments like those in your post do is further alienate them.

I have very much enjoyed the female characters in this series. They can hardly be claimed to fit the traditional female role of weak and in need of saving, or merely interested in dudes and dresses. They are dynamic, real woman, with a wide variety of personalities, ambitions, and actions.

Reasonable and well said.

 

[Alceste]

I think it's a rather unfair characterization to claim that Martin just "blindly incorporated" misogyny in TSOIAF. Misogyny in the series furthers the story, contributes to the background feel of the world, and often highlights the very imperfection of it. Sure, you can claim that he could have written a story without misogyny, as others have, but that isn't the story he had to write. I think that's a rather naive, and mega-restrictive, view of how stories should be written. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a world wear authors couldn't explore worlds in which misogyny existed, and the effects it had upon the characters, nor do I think that authors who choose those sorts of worlds should be criticized just because of that.

I also think it rather sexist to claim that simply because he is a white male, he therefore can't really understand these issues, and therefore included the misogyny simply out of ignorance or a lack of empathy. This is just hogwash. Many men out there are quite empathetic to the feminist cause-- and I would claim that Martin is one of them-- and all sentiments like those in your post do is further alienate them.

I have very much enjoyed the female characters in this series. They can hardly be claimed to fit the traditional female role of weak and in need of saving, or merely interested in dudes and dresses. They are dynamic, real woman, with a wide variety of personalities, ambitions, and actions.

I've loved this quote by him:

(Image from imgur)

I agree. It's the producers that decided to add in dozens of pointless naked women as sex objects. In the books, at least half the segments are written from the POV of complex, believable, fully developed female characters. That's pretty exceptional for a male writer, and IMO it is one of the qualities that, for me, separates the men from the boys in literature. Yes, some of the cultures are patriarchal, but not all, and having strictly defined gender roles and double standards doesn't necessarily strike me as misogynistic.

 

[freethinker44]

I agree. It's the producers that decided to add in dozens of pointless naked women as sex objects.

Still going on about that? If anything, they've made the show less explicit than the books and I've even provided examples of it for you.

 

[Alceste]

Still going on about that? If anything, they've made the show less explicit than the books and I've even provided examples of it for you.

You're on your own there. I can't imagine why you would hold onto the hope that your arguments or examples have been persuasive, as they've all been satisfactorily rebutted multiple times by myself and others with better arguments and examples.

 

[Drolefille]

I think it's a rather unfair characterization to claim that Martin just "blindly incorporated" misogyny in TSOIAF. Misogyny in the series furthers the story, contributes to the background feel of the world, and often highlights the very imperfection of it. Sure, you can claim that he could have written a story without misogyny, as others have, but that isn't the story he had to write. I think that's a rather naive, and mega-restrictive, view of how stories should be written. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a world wear authors couldn't explore worlds in which misogyny existed, and the effects it had upon the characters, nor do I think that authors who choose those sorts of worlds should be criticized just because of that.

You'll note I didn't claim that GRRM was one of those who blindly incorporated it. I've in fact argued that he himself is not misogynistic and that although I believe an argument can be made that his books inadvertently promote the view, I don't particularly advance that myself. I got complained to for not making the arguments earlier in the thread.

There's absolutely merit in exploring these issues, as I noted with one of my other examples. I don't believe there's merit in slapping an easy default setting onto something rather than doing so thoughtfully. I've read books with both.

I also think it rather sexist to claim that simply because he is a white male, he therefore can't really understand these issues, and therefore included the misogyny simply out of ignorance or a lack of empathy.

I didn't say that. I actually said he's quite a bit better at writing these issues then other authors. Although I'd be interested in reading into race in GoT as he created a very white world in his initial books. (Not sure how much has imroved). And yet it has been the case with many white male straight authors (and then white female straight and so on) that many have taken the lazy way of assuming everyone's experiences are like theirs, and created a very white male fantasy world over and over again. I've been reading a lot of older sci-fi and fantasy lately that only emphasizes this. In contrast I deliberately read more diverse modern fiction. As white men dominated the field and still do outside of YA, their perspective dominates SF/F still. It's getting better though.

This is just hogwash. Many men out there are quite empathetic to the feminist cause-- and I would claim that Martin is one of them-- and all sentiments like those in your post do is further alienate them

.
Many men are. I'm not responsible for their alienation. If they no longer believe in the equality of men and women because I point out men write from a place of privilege - as that's the topic here, talk to me about heterosexism in rom-fantasy sometime if you want to know my thoughts - well those people weren't really there in the first place.

I have very much enjoyed the female characters in this series. They can hardly be claimed to fit the traditional female role of weak and in need of saving, or merely interested in dudes and dresses. They are dynamic, real woman, with a wide variety of personalities, ambitions, and actions.

I'd agree, I don't always think Martin gets into their heads well, but overall they're quite good.

I've loved this quote by him:

Yeah, I'm aware of the quote. Which is why the worst thing I've said about him is that he sometimes is bad about being in women's heads and that writing a white male dominated fantasy world be neutral for him. I didn't accuse him of sexism or misogyny or being a big fat doodoo head. I'm a fan, just not a fangirl.

 

[freethinker44]

You're on your own there. I can't imagine why you would hold onto the hope that your arguments or examples have been persuasive, as they've all been satisfactorily rebutted multiple times by myself and others with better arguments and examples.

Really? You rebutted excerpts right out of the books? I guess if you consider someone riding a child bride he bought as hard as he rides a horse and leaving her in too much pain to even cry herself to sleep, in your words, and "inconsiderate partner", I guess if that's what you consider a rebuttal.

 

[Alceste]

Really? You rebutted excerpts right out of the books? I guess if you consider someone riding a child bride he bought as hard as he rides a horse and leaving her in too much pain to even cry herself to sleep, in your words, and "inconsiderate partner", I guess if that's what you consider a rebuttal.

Look around. Is anyone agreeing with you? No? Then it seems you've failed to craft a persuasive argument. Points for effort, though.

 

[freethinker44]

Look around. Is anyone agreeing with you? No? Then it seems you've failed to craft a persuasive argument. Points for effort, though.

So the truth is only true if the majority believes it now? I don't think using the creationists worst arguments is going to be a good defense strategy. Are you going to ask me "were you there?" next?