Misogyny in Game of Thrones?

[Alceste]

I suppose I could give people benefit of the doubt, but I don't like being wrong and in my experience extending that courtesy more often than not ends up being more credit than people deserve. It's incredibly cynical, I know, but it usually works out better for me to doubt and get proof than to take their word for it, and I've found this is especially true when someone is talking about something they do or something that has happened to them. This attitude doesn't net a lot of friends but I have yet to encounter a situation where that has mattered to me.

Heh - I'm not sure you realize how vivid a picture of your personal life this post paints.

 

[freethinker44]

Heh - I'm not sure you realize how vivid a picture of your personal life this post paints.

I don't mind. I have nothing to hide, and I'm not ashamed of anything.

 

[Alceste]

I don't mind. I have nothing to hide, and I'm not ashamed of anything.

I'm not trying to shame you. I'm just picturing someone trying to chat with you about their weekend and being met with your pointless, arbitrary skepticism. I know a few people like that, and you're right, it's not easy for them to make friends. It's funny, though.

 

[freethinker44]

I'm not trying to shame you. I'm just picturing someone trying to chat with you about their weekend and being met with your pointless, arbitrary skepticism. I know a few people like that, and you're right, it's not easy for them to make friends. It's funny, though.

I don't force people to prove every little event in their life before I believe them, I'm not that unreasonable. Well, I guess it depends on the situation, but most of the time I can force myself to sit through idle conversation without any incidents.

But this is hardly idle conversation so I don't think it's completely unreasonable to doubt personal stories and anecdotal evidence in a debate especially if we have opposing opinions, which we apparently do.

 

[Alceste]

I don't force people to prove every little event in their life before I believe them, I'm not that unreasonable. Well, I guess it depends on the situation, but most of the time I can force myself to sit through idle conversation without any incidents.

But this is hardly idle conversation so I don't think it's completely unreasonable to doubt personal stories and anecdotal evidence in a debate especially if we have opposing opinions, which we apparently do.

I'm not surprised we're having a debate if you are predisposed to disbelieve women's personal experiences of sexual harassment and discrimination in general.

IMO, it's a pretty ridiculous issue to be skeptical about, though. Might as well harbour skepticism about folks who claim to have had eggs for breakfast. Which I did, by the way. Fried egg sandwich on brown bread, with spinach, tomato, cheddar and guacamole. Sounds unbelievable, but I swear it's true!

I can't wait to hear what you make of this website...

the everyday sexism project

It's like an alien abduction anecdote collection, but for wackos who imagine they've been harassed, discriminated against or abused because of their gender.

 

[freethinker44]

I'm not surprised we're having a debate if you are predisposed to disbelieve women's personal experiences of sexual harassment and discrimination in general.

You spelled person wrong.

IMO, it's a pretty ridiculous issue to be skeptical about, though.

I've worked in male dominated jobs. I was a diesel mechanic for almost 10 years and I've never seen anything that even comes close to what you are talking about. Of course I could be wrong, maybe the film industry just happens to attract the most sexist men in society, I don't know. But it's not ridiculous to be skeptical about something I've never seen in 10 years of working similar conditions.

Might as well harbour skepticism about folks who claim to have had eggs for breakfast. Which I did, by the way. Fried egg sandwich on brown bread, with spinach, tomato, cheddar and guacamole. Sounds unbelievable, but I swear it's true!

Yeah right, like I'm going to believe "brown bread" is a real thing.

I can't wait to hear what you make of this website...

the everyday sexism project

It's like an alien abduction anecdote collection, but for wackos who imagine they've been harassed, discriminated against or abused because of their gender.

Couldn't view it. I got two posts in and my brain went into skeptical overload, I think I actually blacked out for a minute. I couldn't go any further.

 

[Alceste]

You spelled person wrong.



I've worked in male dominated jobs. I was a diesel mechanic for almost 10 years and I've never seen anything that even comes close to what you are talking about. Of course I could be wrong, maybe the film industry just happens to attract the most sexist men in society, I don't know. But it's not ridiculous to be skeptical about something I've never seen in 10 years of working similar conditions.



Yeah right, like I'm going to believe "brown bread" is a real thing.



Couldn't view it. I got two posts in and my brain went into skeptical overload, I think I actually blacked out for a minute. I couldn't go any further.

Lol, OK, you were a diesel mechanic and never overheard a male coworker privately try to solicit oral sex from a female coworker, or overheard a male coworker privately explain to a female coworker that she is not being permitted to advance in her career because she doesn't put out. Therefore it probably never have happened to anyone, ever. Is that how skepticism works? I think I've been doing it wrong.

 

[freethinker44]

Lol, OK, you were a diesel mechanic and never overheard a male coworker privately try to solicit oral sex from a female coworker, or overheard a male coworker privately explain to a female coworker that she is not being permitted to advance in her career because she doesn't put out. Therefore it probably never have happened to anyone, ever. Is that how skepticism works? I think I've been doing it wrong.

Yeah, that is how skepticism works. Everything you've said is contradictory to every experience I've ever had working in similar situations. What's "ridiculous" about being skeptical about something that contradicts your life experiences?

 

[Drolefille]

Yeah, that is how skepticism works. Everything you've said is contradictory to every experience I've ever had working in similar situations. What's "ridiculous" about being skeptical about something that contradicts your life experiences?

Because being skeptical doesn't mean applying your own life experience to everything. It doesn't mean valuing your anecdotes above others' stories.

That would be like saying that there is no hunger in America because you've never gone hungry. Or that no one is poor because you're middle class. It's a bit "let them eat cake" isn't it?


You were linked to what is known as evidence - a collection of anecdotes that provide as a group the evidence to support the point that sexism exists in this way. Because the other option is that all of these people made things up - that sounds like a conspiracy theory, something we should all be quite skeptical of.

That means that this group is making things up: - Stop Street Harassment
Must not happen if you've never been catcalled.

Knowledge Center | Catalyst.org
The 11k people who filed sexual harassment claims were making things up because it didn't happen to you.

Skeptics don't ignore evidence because they don't like it, or to be more accurate, they shouldn't. Because otherwise they're just lying to themselves.

 

[illykitty]

Yeah, that is how skepticism works. Everything you've said is contradictory to every experience I've ever had working in similar situations. What's "ridiculous" about being skeptical about something that contradicts your life experiences?

You spelled bias wrong.

 

[freethinker44]

You spelled bias wrong.

No, it's spelled right. when you want to say "biased against over-exaggerated, excessively-dramatized, anecdotal evidence" you spell it "skeptical".

 

[Alceste]

No, it's spelled right. when you want to say "biased against over-exaggerated, excessively-dramatized, anecdotal evidence" you spell it "skeptical".

I just told you exactly what happened: reiterated two very short but extremely memorable conversations with no filler or added flair. I'm over it - it was fifteen years ago. I'm back on the job now, satisfied with my work and getting along just fine with my regular all male crew. Any melodrama you found in my story must have come from you. Psychological projection is so much fun, isn't it?

 

[freethinker44]

Because being skeptical doesn't mean applying your own life experience to everything. It doesn't mean valuing your anecdotes above others' stories.

That would be like saying that there is no hunger in America because you've never gone hungry. Or that no one is poor because you're middle class. It's a bit "let them eat cake" isn't it?


You were linked to what is known as evidence - a collection of anecdotes that provide as a group the evidence to support the point that sexism exists in this way. Because the other option is that all of these people made things up - that sounds like a conspiracy theory, something we should all be quite skeptical of.

That means that this group is making things up: - Stop Street Harassment
Must not happen if you've never been catcalled.

Knowledge Center | Catalyst.org
The 11k people who filed sexual harassment claims were making things up because it didn't happen to you.

Skeptics don't ignore evidence because they don't like it, or to be more accurate, they shouldn't. Because otherwise they're just lying to themselves.

OK, you're right. A true skeptic would accept anecdotal evidence without question. My mistake, I guess it's completely "unreasonable" and "ridiculous" to doubt someone's experiences that contradict your own.

 

[Alceste]

Because being skeptical doesn't mean applying your own life experience to everything. It doesn't mean valuing your anecdotes above others' stories.

That would be like saying that there is no hunger in America because you've never gone hungry. Or that no one is poor because you're middle class. It's a bit "let them eat cake" isn't it?


You were linked to what is known as evidence - a collection of anecdotes that provide as a group the evidence to support the point that sexism exists in this way. Because the other option is that all of these people made things up - that sounds like a conspiracy theory, something we should all be quite skeptical of.

That means that this group is making things up: - Stop Street Harassment
Must not happen if you've never been catcalled.

Knowledge Center | Catalyst.org
The 11k people who filed sexual harassment claims were making things up because it didn't happen to you.

Skeptics don't ignore evidence because they don't like it, or to be more accurate, they shouldn't. Because otherwise they're just lying to themselves.

Exactly. Another individual's direct experience is generally irrelevant in determining whether a claim is true or false. When Ken Hamm yells "WERE YOU THERE????" at evolutionary biologists, it's not skepticism. When a guy who frequents a forum where headlines like the sexual assault of women in Egypt are regularly discussed refuses to believe North American women also get sexually harassed, it's not skepticism.

It's been my observation that many people who identify as "skeptics" and wear the label like a badge of honour are anything but.

 

[Alceste]

OK, you're right. A true skeptic would accept anecdotal evidence without question. My mistake, I guess it's completely "unreasonable" and "ridiculous" to doubt someone's experiences that contradict your own.

That's hilarious. How much experience do you actually have of BEING A WOMAN working on an all male crew? Is it possible that the experiences of WOMEN working on all male teams might be more credible than yours?

 

[Debater Slayer]

OK, you're right. A true skeptic would accept anecdotal evidence without question. My mistake, I guess it's completely "unreasonable" and "ridiculous" to doubt someone's experiences that contradict your own.

I think you're confusing rational skepticism with arbitrary denial of legitimate social problems like misogyny and sexual harassment. The only way you could ever have firsthand experience--which is apparently your requirement for believing that it actually happened when someone else tells you that it did--of sexual harassment stemming from male entitlement in cultures where misogyny is pervasive and sometimes even glorified is to be a woman yourself. By your logic, people should also be skeptical of reports about rape unless they witnessed or experienced it themselves.

That's exactly the kind of attitude that causes sexual harassment and assault to be overlooked and brushed aside in many cases, especially in cultures that tend to scrutinize and blame women for getting harassed or assaulted instead of addressing the underlying causes of the problem.

 

[freethinker44]

When a guy who frequents a forum where headlines like the sexual assault of women in Egypt are regularly discussed refuses to believe North American women also get sexually harassed, it's not skepticism.

First of all, Eqypt is a completely different culture on the other side of the planet, I don't know how that relates to North America at all.

Second, I never said anything refusing to believe North American women AND men are sexually harassed, I just doubted your personal story, and I didn't even refuse to believe it, I just doubted it. You talk about projecting, I doubt you and you say I refuse to believe every woman as if you are the only woman on the entire continent.

 

[freethinker44]

I think you're confusing rational skepticism with arbitrary denial of legitimate social problems like misogyny and sexual harassment.

I stopped reading your post after this line because I knew it was based on this complete fabrication that didn't come from me. I have never denied misogyny and sexual harassment exist, if I even came close to saying that than you misunderstood me, but I didn't so this is completely fabricated.

 

[Alceste]

I stopped reading your post after this line because I knew it was based on this complete fabrication that didn't come from me. I have never denied misogyny and sexual harassment exist, if I even came close to saying that than you misunderstood me, but I didn't so this is completely fabricated.

Oh right, you don't deny that sexual harassment exists, you just doubt that anyone actually experiences it firsthand, or is capable of accurately relating their experience of it.

 

[Alceste]

I stopped reading your post after this line because I knew it was based on this complete fabrication that didn't come from me. I have never denied misogyny and sexual harassment exist, if I even came close to saying that than you misunderstood me, but I didn't so this is completely fabricated.

Sure you did, by inference, in your reaction to the everyday sexism project, which amounted to a big eyeball roll. I think you should give it anther go, to be honest. Even skipping the wordy ones, it should help you gain some insight into the casual sexual harassment, sexism and discrimination most women experience at some point in their lives.