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Moderate Muslims' beliefs about homosexuality

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
It can be also cured by considering sex not only a physical act but also a spiritual and moral act. The love between males and females not only the physical actions.

Furthermore, specific to what was said here: maybe you don't believe that the love between gay men or lesbian women goes beyond the physical actions, but I can assure you that you're wrong.

A "homosexual" may be defined (because of that term) by a sexual preference -- an attraction for a person -- but a homosexual is no more defined by that than a person might be "defined" by, say, being attracted to green-eyed people.

Maybe there are homosexuals that don't experience love; that just engage in sex as a physical act for the sake of it. Fine. But there are just as many heterosexuals that do the same.

Homosexuals aren't defined by their sexuality contrary to popular belief. For instance, I know a (white) guy who once commented that he doubted he could ever be attracted to a black girl. This guy is not a racist in any sense whatsoever; he just happens not to be physically attracted to black women -- there's nothing wrong with that; there's no connotations of bigotry or hate there, just sheer biological attraction (or lack thereof). Let's call my friend Cliff to protect his identity here.

Is Cliff defined by his sexuality: his biological inability to be attracted to a specific body type found in humans? Of course not. That little thing about Cliff is such a small part of who he is that it's just a tiny footnote in the "book of Cliff." Well, likewise with homosexuals. I can't speak for all LGBT people, so I'll speak for myself. I'm not sexually attracted to men, but I happen to be sexually attracted to other women. Does that define me? NO! No more than it "defines" Cliff to prefer non-black women. There's no judgement or bigotry: I don't dislike men, I don't think anything's wrong with them, I just don't feel a sexual attraction towards them.

On the converse, and back to the original point, is my relationship with women purely sexual when I'm in a relationship with them? No! In fact, I've been with the same woman for three years. We intend to be married for life -- regardless of whether the state recognizes our commitment to one another or not. Is our relationship defined by sex? Of course not. We don't have sex more than heterosexual couples or focus on sex in our thoughts more than heterosexual couples. We're just a couple of people that love each other just as much as any man might love a woman or any woman might love a man.

I'm not sure why you believe that homosexuals' relationships are purely physical, but you're simply wrong. Our love is more legitimate, more fierce, more true than a vast majority of married heterosexuals' love for one another. Maybe your religion forbids you from acknowledging that we can love one another -- and again, if that's the case, or something else is the case, you're totally entitled to your opinion and I agree wholeheartedly with your right to have and even express that opinion -- but I'm just saying for the sake of possibility that you might consider it that such an opinion is totally wrong. Homosexuals aren't defined by physical relationships, even though it might seem that way sometimes (perhaps because the word "sex" appears in that word). Our relationships can be just as earnest, rich, deep, and fulfilling; even without physical lovemaking.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Have either of you considered that it's extremely inconsiderate to say that someone can be "cured" of their feelings for the people that they love as though it were some sort of disease?

What if someone were to make an inconsiderate post where they spoke of "curing" you of your love for your wife, or husband, or God, as though that were a disease? What if they openly scorned your love for someone as something illegitimate, vile, or insincere -- completely unapologetically?

You may believe that sexual relationships between the same sex is disgusting (and that's fine), you may believe that God frowns on same-sex couples (and that's fine), but that doesn't give you an excuse to use language publicly that treats love between two people like some sort of disease that needs to be "cured." It may not be illegal, and I do indeed support your right to free speech and to express your opinion, but that doesn't make it any less hateful or rude.

I don't think that instilling religion in children is ethical or morally right, for instance; but I don't run around rudely braying that religion is a "disease" that needs to be "cured" no matter how much I disagree with it. I probably find it about as disgusting as you might find homosexual relationships -- but I'm not rude enough to publicly announce that religious people are a plague that should be sterilized.

Now, I've used a lot of strong and fairly harsh language above, but it's only to make a point. Maybe neither of you considered how your choice of words would come across to people, and that's fine. I get that a lot of religions frown on homosexuality and that consequently, it might be difficult to imagine genuine love between two men or two women. If you truly believe that God disapproves of it then you might feel justified in treating it like a disease of some sort. You're entitled to believe that -- I'm a woman, but I'm attracted to other women, and I fully support anyone's right to disagree with homosexuality, even if they vehemently disagree with it.

That doesn't give you the right to be outright rude, though. Disagree with homosexuality all you want -- you can even be vocal about it and say how wrong you think it is, but please do not publicly tell me and those like me that my genuine love for another person is a disease. Because that's exactly what the implication is when you assert there's a "cure." Is there a "cure" for loving God? Is there a "cure" for loving your husband or wife? Let's please just be a little more considerate in how we word things, okay?

(I'm not as angry as that sounded, though! We're all friends here :yes:)

-----
EDIT: Also, sorry for the redundancy; this post was written while running back and forth making food -- I kept forgetting what I had already typed and what I still felt I needed to say!


Dear, we all love people whether males or females, it's a disease only to love a person of the same sex in a way the was designed in another way so don't mix things together. I may love one of my friends more than my wife but practicing sex with him is something else. This is becoming out of the bright way that was designed by God. Designed through the complementarity in bodies, emotions and the ability to create a family. Also, I've mentioned before that studies point to the effects of homosexuality whether medical or psychological which also proves that it's not the right way. So, you can talk the way you want but actions are different. Many people talk and try to make ugly things sound beautiful but at the end we all know that truth and you are sure of the truth, it's just a void argument.

Moreover, many of those who are like you consider homosexuality a curse and others who were like you were very happy when they finally were able to desert this thing which you may consider it a gift-or just say so as nobody has reached your heart-. Anyway, finding homosexuality a bad act doesn't mean that I wish that homos should be cursed but only hate the act in itself and wish they'd abandon it.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
I don't think that instilling religion in children is ethical or morally right, for instance; but I don't run around rudely braying that religion is a "disease" that needs to be "cured" no matter how much I disagree with it. I probably find it about as disgusting as you might find homosexual relationships -- but I'm not rude enough to publicly announce that religious people are a plague that should be sterilized.

Moreover, Miss Meow, you hate religion but I think the only cause that you hate it is because it frowns on our sexual acts-according to your terms. But according to what I know religion teaches people God manners and that the universe has a creator. The universe that is far much more complicated, intricate and delicate than a TV which talk centuries of knowledge to reach to its design.So that's religion that I see, the plague you consider.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
I'm not sure why you believe that homosexuals' relationships are purely physical, but you're simply wrong. Our love is more legitimate, more fierce, more true than a vast majority of married heterosexuals' love for one another. Maybe your religion forbids you from acknowledging that we can love one another -- and again, if that's the case, or something else is the case, you're totally entitled to your opinion and I agree wholeheartedly with your right to have and even express that opinion -- but I'm just saying for the sake of possibility that you might consider it that such an opinion is totally wrong. Homosexuals aren't defined by physical relationships, even though it might seem that way sometimes (perhaps because the word "sex" appears in that word). Our relationships can be just as earnest, rich, deep, and fulfilling; even without physical lovemaking. __________________

Ok, that's good and I also have very lovely feelings towards my friends of the same sexual identity so the question is : Why SEX? Males and males are not adapted for each others , Males are adapted for females and voxe versa. The nature of their bodies and that of their personalities are designed so and this is clearly evident and not in need of an argument.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Dear, we all love people whether males or females,

Which is true, I would hope, of any considerate human being. I love people Platonically whether they approve of whom I love or not. I won't abide blatant disregard for civility, though. I try to be civil with people even if I disagree with how they feel or what they believe unless they're hurting people.

tarekabdo said:
it's a disease only to love a person of the same sex in a way the was designed in another way so don't mix things together. I may love one of my friends more than my wife but practicing sex with him is something else. This is becoming out of the bright way that was designed by God. Designed through the complementarity in bodies, emotions and the ability to create a family.

I don't think anybody denies that males and females are biologically complementary. I don't think anybody denies that homosexuality is "abnormal" in the sense that if it were the norm there would be no future generations. (Luckily for the species, only about 10% at the highest estimates of people are homosexual, though.) That's not the issue here.

It's also not the issue of creating a family. Nobody objects when adult males and females form romantic relationships that don't lead to families, such as when they're infertile or simply don't desire children. Humans will not go extinct because of homosexuals because they have been and always will be a minority.

The issue is the false belief that genuine homosexuals choose who they're attracted to (and conversely who they're not attracted to). The issue is the belief that homosexuals can't have what you call complementary emotions -- they do. I do. We (my fiancee and I) do.

tarekabdo said:
Also, I've mentioned before that studies point to the effects of homosexuality whether medical or psychological which also proves that it's not the right way.

No, the studies that you referenced indicated that there are disproportionate numbers of people with high-risk lifestyles. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle (no more than "attracted-to-blondeness" is a lifestyle), and correlation does not imply causation.

Keep in mind that homosexuals are undeniably a repressed minority in nearly every society on Earth. Take a look at studies and statistics of other repressed minorities and you'll find the same patterns of high-risk lifestyles. As a midwesterner in America, I've seen firsthand the effects of repression on "racial" minorities and the economically downtrodden: there are legitimate studies that show STD's, drug habits, and other "high-risk lifestyle" factors are disproportionately present in racial minorities and poorer communities.

Does the fact that studies show, for instance, that a black teenager in the USA is far more likely to fall into a "high-risk lifestyle" than a suburban white teenager suggest that there's something inherently "wrong" with being black? Of course not! That would be absolutely ridiculous to believe or to assert.

Repressed minorities tend to have higher rates of high-risk lifestyles because they often don't get the support and nurturing that they need. Have you ever considered that maybe there's a disproportionate number of homosexuals with high-risk lifestyles for the same reasons? Again, homosexuality is not a lifestyle any more than being black is a lifestyle. Nothing about being homosexual inclines a person towards a high-risk lifestyle -- being repressed by a needlessly disapproving society certainly can, though.

tarekabdo said:
So, you can talk the way you want but actions are different. Many people talk and try to make ugly things sound beautiful but at the end we all know that truth and you are sure of the truth, it's just a void argument.

It seems arrogant to me to assume that something is ugly regardless of others' experience with it to the extent that you believe the argument is over before it begins. I don't care for or want your approval of homosexuality. I don't care if you loathe it, or if you express your opinion that you believe it's morally wrong. I do care when someone belittles my love for another person as though it somehow isn't real without remorse, though.

I'm not unfair or biased against religious belief -- I give all things an equal chance -- but I find a lot of it probably equally as repugnant as you find homosexuality. I find it absolutely abhorrent that people indoctrinate credulous children in religion before they're old enough for legitimate rational thought. Even so, I never -- and hope that continues through the future -- belittle someone's belief publicly as a disease that needs to be "cured" out of respect for those who cherish that belief. Is it really a lot to ask for the same common respect?

tarekabdo said:
Moreover, many of those who are like you consider homosexuality a curse and others who were like you were very happy when they finally were able to desert this thing which you may consider it a gift-or just say so as nobody has reached your heart-. Anyway, finding homosexuality a bad act doesn't mean that I wish that homos should be cursed but only hate the act in itself and wish they'd abandon it.

Homosexuality is only a curse insofar as wicked people persecute homosexuals needlessly. It's not something that can be changed or "cured" any more than you can be changed or "cured" to start being sexually attracted to the same sex. Some people are bisexual and can freely be attracted to either sex -- this can lead to the illusion that someone may have been exclusively homosexual and then "cured" to heterosexuality, but that simply isn't the case.

Certain religions might discourage and condemn homosexuality, but that's not an excuse to repress people or to prevent them from having equal civil rights. Some people are born infertile -- it isn't "normal" for them to be that way, but they can't help it; since they're consenting and sentient adults society accepts them even though they are different and acknowledges their love between one another as genuine.

What's different? Some people are born with the predisposition to be attracted to the same sex and the incapacity to be attracted to the opposite sex. It isn't "normal" for them to be that way (though it is certainly natural), but the fact of the matter is that they are that way and it's not something that can be changed. Since they're consenting and sentient adults society should accept them even though they're different and acknowledge their love between one another as genuine.

If some people have religious beliefs against it, that's fine -- that's their right. It's not their right to repress homosexual people though; it's not their right to vote against their equal civil rights or to publicly shout vitriol without any consideration for their dignity or feelings whatsoever. I will never vote to oppress religious rights, I will never speak deliberately hateful and belittling things against peoples' religious beliefs even if I strongly question them and their (in my opinion) ill-informed morality. Is it so much to ask the same?
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Homosexuals aren't defined by their sexuality contrary to popular belief. For instance, I know a (white) guy who once commented that he doubted he could ever be attracted to a black girl. This guy is not a racist in any sense whatsoever; he just happens not to be physically attracted to black women -- there's nothing wrong with that; there's no connotations of bigotry or hate there, just sheer biological attraction (or lack thereof). Let's call my friend Cliff to protect his identity here.

Yes, it's like when someone likes bananas and dislikes apples but still they both were designed to be eaten. However, if you meet someone who likes each the soil( Pica) and dislikes the usual food we eat you consider him diseased. I myself prefer light colored women and my friend who is most intimate and close to me may prefer tanned women and I live in a country that doesn't consider any racial difference such a very far period of time but that doesn't make me away from the normal range. Some people may prefer blue color and others may prefer white in their clothes, etc.., however, if somebody prefers to wear dirty clothes so he's considered abnormal.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
I don't think anybody denies that males and females are biologically complementary. I don't think anybody denies that homosexuality is "abnormal" in the sense that if it were the norm there would be no future generations. (Luckily for the species, only about 10% at the highest estimates of people are homosexual, though.) That's not the issue here.

It's also not the issue of creating a family. Nobody objects when adult males and females form romantic relationships that don't lead to families, such as when they're infertile or simply don't desire children. Humans will not go extinct because of homosexuals because they have been and always will be a minority.

The issue is the false belief that genuine homosexuals choose who they're attracted to (and conversely who they're not attracted to). The issue is the belief that homosexuals can't have what you call complementary emotions -- they do. I do. We (my fiancee and I) do.

Lady, I wasn't talking here about fertility, I was talking about complementarity. I was pointing to the design which is so delicate, intricate, complementary and complete so don't shift the conversation away from its original point. This complementarity proves first the presence of an intelligent designer made ,second that this designer made them for each others. Just like that, it's so delicate, fine and simple.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
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Doesn't something like this assert the presence of a designer? Doesn't this also prove that the designer intended to design it in a certain way for a deliberate reason? This is the concept of complementarity.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
No, the studies that you referenced indicated that there are disproportionate numbers of people with high-risk lifestyles. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle (no more than "attracted-to-blondeness" is a lifestyle), and correlation does not imply causation.

Keep in mind that homosexuals are undeniably a repressed minority in nearly every society on Earth. Take a look at studies and statistics of other repressed minorities and you'll find the same patterns of high-risk lifestyles. As a midwesterner in America, I've seen firsthand the effects of repression on "racial" minorities and the economically downtrodden: there are legitimate studies that show STD's, drug habits, and other "high-risk lifestyle" factors are disproportionately present in racial minorities and poorer communities.

Does the fact that studies show, for instance, that a black teenager in the USA is far more likely to fall into a "high-risk lifestyle" than a suburban white teenager suggest that there's something inherently "wrong" with being black? Of course not! That would be absolutely ridiculous to believe or to assert.

Repressed minorities tend to have higher rates of high-risk lifestyles because they often don't get the support and nurturing that they need. Have you ever considered that maybe there's a disproportionate number of homosexuals with high-risk lifestyles for the same reasons? Again, homosexuality is not a lifestyle any more than being black is a lifestyle. Nothing about being homosexual inclines a person towards a high-risk lifestyle -- being repressed by a needlessly disapproving society certainly can, though.

We weren't only talking about high-risk behaviors, we were also talking about violence and infidelity. Moreover, being repressed doesn't mean that I go and damage my beloved couple-as you consider. For example, Muslims were and are repressed in many communities yet that doesn't make them beat their wives. This is not an excuse and does mean nothing, it also didn't make them drink alcohol because they originally don't. I also don't understand how they are repressed( I don't live in your community). As far as I know, the law in your coutry allows them to havy all their civil rights.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
I'm not unfair or biased against religious belief -- I give all things an equal chance -- but I find a lot of it probably equally as repugnant as you find homosexuality. I find it absolutely abhorrent that people indoctrinate credulous children in religion before they're old enough for legitimate rational thought. Even so, I never -- and hope that continues through the future -- belittle someone's belief publicly as a disease that needs to be "cured" out of respect for those who cherish that belief. Is it really a lot to ask for the same common respect?

If you had a child also, you will go on filling him with your ideas about homosexuality. So, children learn and imitate and later on everyone will filter his knowledge and be responsible. If your concept is true so don't teach credulous children anything at all till they grow up.Don't teach them morals because morals are subjective and don't teach them evolution as it's subjective. Children are taught what their parents give them till they can differentiate and choose whether it's bad or good. It's not only religion and this is not an excuse. If a child was born in America hundreds of years ago, he'd have been taught that black people are his slaves but later he has to choose, and if a child was born to a homosexual who had previous heterosexual relations he'll teach him that it's a great thing so what? The child will take his choices later on and that's how people differ. This isn't the problem of religion, it's more related to the concept of human life.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Some people are born with the predisposition to be attracted to the same sex

This is something that doesn't carry a consensus. It's a man-fabricated notion to advocate homosexual behavior. Even, if it's true so it's a psychiatric disease that should be cured not advocated. Some people are born with tendency to aggression and others abandon food but still they are disease.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
If some people have religious beliefs against it, that's fine -- that's their right. It's not their right to repress homosexual people though; it's not their right to vote against their equal civil rights or to publicly shout vitriol without any consideration for their dignity or feelings whatsoever. I will never vote to oppress religious rights, I will never speak deliberately hateful and belittling things against peoples' religious beliefs even if I strongly question them and their (in my opinion) ill-informed morality. Is it so much to ask the same?
I already discussed that before in this thread.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Keep in mind that homosexuals are undeniably a repressed minority in nearly every society on Earth. Take a look at studies and statistics of other repressed minorities and you'll find the same patterns of high-risk lifestyles. As a midwesterner in America, I've seen firsthand the effects of repression on "racial" minorities and the economically downtrodden: there are legitimate studies that show STD's, drug habits, and other "high-risk lifestyle" factors are disproportionately present in racial minorities and poorer communities.

Yes, they are poorer and with low degree of education so what do you think they'd do? study Shakespeare?
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Homosexuals are not poorer but actually are richer so there must be another cause. People look to them in a low manner so if they feel they aren't so they won't feel any repression. So what, many people were repressed and still remained satisfied. I secondly assert that this behavior is abnormal and that's what makes homos psychologically suffer as they are doing something against their nature.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's a man-fabricated notion to advocate homosexual behavior.
Tis an interesting & ironic statement. All the various religions which preach against homosexuality were invented by man.
Yet homosexuality appears to be an inherent trait which needs no invention at all. By reasoning I've seen here, that would
make religion the unnatural abomination.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
I am sure some do. Others become famous writers and playwrights themselves. Others make contribute to society through politics, song, photography, philosophy, scientific research, etc, etc, etc...

Famous Gay,Lesbian and Bisexual people


I was talking about the poor people not homosexuals, I know that most homosexuals are rich luxurious people and I already stated this in my words. You should read my statements carefully.
 
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tarekabdo12

Active Member
Tis an interesting & ironic statement. All the various religions which preach against homosexuality were invented by man.
Yet homosexuality appears to be an inherent trait which needs no invention at all. By reasoning I've seen here, that would
make religion the unnatural abomination.


Religions were born with people and there are even genes in the body that favour religion but homosexuality is against the normal and was fabricated by man as it counters the physical and psychological nature of humans.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Religions were born with people and there are even genes in the body that favour religion but homosexuality is against the normal and was fabricated by man as it counters the physical and psychological nature of humans.
Another interesting and ironic statement. Considering modern genetics has found links between genetic makeup and homosexuality.

You can't have it both ways.
 
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