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Modern man like footprints found, evolution theory in doubt.

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Don't get sore that you stand exposed for empty posts. Just try to improve.
You're not succeeding at making a case with insults alone.

Try reading what was posted. On the issue of the foot prints I believe what the article stated about them not knowing. I also think that both man and apes have adapted and evolved a lot since the pre lood and early post flood eras. Let me know if you need it repeated.
Where is this proof of a "flood era"?

On the topic, I believe in the parts of Scripture that describe the past, and how it was different than today in nature. How about you? You believe Jesus actually created all things?
Rather than getting sore that your little false god of so called science is getting whomped, why not try and form some cohesive posts, that support whatever beliefs you may have?
I don't appreciate you making up lies about my beliefs no matter how much you want to win. Science is of course no god to me, false god or true god. A mechanic uses science and it's results for his job even unknowingly, but is science god for him? Science is merely the method and collective effort of mankind that works for what is intended. Science isn't getting "whomped", but if that's what you want to believe, that's great. Give yourself a cookie, science had a hand in getting those done too.

No I don't believe Jesus created all things, do you?
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Well, the fools doing the indoctrination are intoxicated by the same snake oil that they sell.

This is an important point. It's like a chain letter, isn't it? "Pass on the message or wind up in hell".

However, everyone has a duty of due diligence to avoid falling for balderdash, so I hold even the victims of this horrible con game guilty.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No such thing except in your evolution field of dreams. Yes there were various monkeys apes etc. You seem to be claiming it was one of these. Even if true, you need to more thsn double your timeframe from what used to be claimed!
Your blind willful rejection of the many well established transitional species between ancient apes and modern humans is irrelevant. I am simply stating what the scientific paper you quoted in your OP is actually saying and what it says is contrary to what you claimed it was saying.

The paper is saying that it has found, in Crete, a set of footprints that belong to a primitive species of bipedal hominin that lived 5.7 million years ago, a transitional form between ancient apes and modern humans.

Does the conclusion of the paper upset any theories of human evolution? No it does not. We already know of at least three species of bipedal hominins that lived in the world 6 million years ago. These are Sahelanthropus, Ororin and Graecopithecus. So what is so surprising about finding hominin footprints? Finally, regarding the fact that it was found in the Mediterranean rather than in Africa, that too is quite unsurprising as I explained in the earlier post below.

Modern man like footprints found, evolution theory in doubt.

So.. sorry to disappoint you, but nothing in the discovery or analysis done in the paper cast any kind of doubt in the established science of human evolution. Rather it bolsters it by adding further evidence for human evolution.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
There is no evidence there was no flood. The article pointed out that the theory of evolution included a timeline for man. That was shattered.

The evidence against the flood is staggering; ranging from mathematical calculations prohibiting the existence of such an amount of water existing or ever existing, sedimentary layers, etc. etc. etc; changes in salinity and temperature and pressure of oceans would have wiped out marine life as we know it and completely altered plant life as we know it (thus the existence of a flood beside the existence of such a world wide flood would serve to substantiate evolution; and at a very swift time scale).

Even if the "timeline for man" is not what we thought it was, it does not mean that it is "shattered". It means that it is not what we thought it was and is "adjusted".

And, as has been pointed out to you, one can not use these footprints (provided they are verified to be as old as initial findings indicate) as evidence towards biblical myths when these footprints also shatter the time line of biblical myths.
 

dad1

Active Member
If science is "beliefs", then those "beliefs" are what power the very device you're using to access the internet right now. Better go submerge it in holy water and say a lengthy prayer over it.
Please post ANY device or anything at all that origin science brought us? Don't try offering medical advances based on evolution, because that is only involving bacteria and evolving that happens in the present time.
An example of reason is taking an objective, analytical look at the evidence, conduct research, perform tests, and then logically deduce a conclusion from the resulting data.
Great so pick an object and do it for us.

Unlike your religion, which makes irrational, unfounded, and arbitrary presumptions.
I think this is a forum where people should try to respect other religions, no?
It's okay to admit that ancient goat herders were wrong, and that they didn't speak for god. You needn't wallow in denial. It's embarrassing.
Slander.
 

dad1

Active Member
I feel no need for yours either, thanks.
I've heard them over and over, for decades, and I keep noticing how unsupported by evidence they are.
Tom
No idea what you are talking about. Have you heard that nature was different in the past?
 

dad1

Active Member
Your blind willful rejection of the many well established transitional species between ancient apes and modern humans is irrelevant.
Your imagining monkeys were ancestors, and flatworms is irrelevant. Prove it.

I am simply stating what the scientific paper you quoted in your OP is actually saying and what it says is contrary to what you claimed it was saying.
You deny that the extra millions of years in age of the prints from the usual dates cited for hominids is stark?
The paper is saying that it has found, in Crete, a set of footprints that belong to a primitive species of bipedal hominin that lived 5.7 million years ago, a transitional form between ancient apes and modern humans.
Anyone can say that. They could say it was from hobbits. We need to see evidence. Have any?
Does the conclusion of the paper upset any theories of human evolution? No it does not.
Timelines are part of the theory. They got clobbered.

We already know of at least three species of bipedal hominins that lived in the world 6 million years ago. These are Sahelanthropus, Ororin and Graecopithecus. So what is so surprising about finding hominin footprints?

In wiki, regarding the first one in your list I see this

"Existing fossils include a relatively small cranium named Toumaï ("hope of life" in the local Daza language of Chad in central Africa), five pieces of jaw, and some teeth, making up a head that has a mixture of derived and primitive features. The braincase, being only 320 cm³ to 380 cm³ in volume, is similar to that of extant chimpanzees and is notably less than the approximate human volume of 1350 cm³.[citation needed]"

So where are the prints of these so you cam claim they match? Making stuff up?

Finally, regarding the fact that it was found in the Mediterranean rather than in Africa, that too is quite unsurprising as I explained in the earlier post below.

Both in the bible record and in science it is unsurprising. Why would we default to your belief? That is not science.
So.. sorry to disappoint you, but nothing in the discovery or analysis done in the paper cast any kind of doubt in the established science of human evolution. Rather it bolsters it by adding further evidence for human evolution.

Except this was millions of years too early, no? Except you don't know what left the prints. Etc. You think ignorance is victory?
 

dad1

Active Member
The evidence against the flood is staggering; ranging from mathematical calculations prohibiting the existence of such an amount of water existing or ever existing, sedimentary layers, etc. etc. etc;
Gong!
How would you know say, if that much water existed near the KT layer?
changes in salinity and temperature and pressure of oceans would have wiped out marine life as we know it and completely altered plant life as we know it
False. Remember the rapid evolution of the former nature?
(thus the existence of a flood beside the existence of such a world wide flood would serve to substantiate evolution; and at a very swift time scale).
Bingo. Even today salmon adapt from fresh to salt water. Imagine in the former state how fast it could be!
Even if the "timeline for man" is not what we thought it was, it does not mean that it is "shattered". It means that it is not what we thought it was and is "adjusted".
Yeah right. You toss around billions or millions of years as needed. Presto.

And, as has been pointed out to you, one can not use these footprints (provided they are verified to be as old as initial findings indicate) as evidence towards biblical myths when these footprints also shatter the time line of biblical myths.
If the flood was dated 70 million years ago, how would the prints shatter anything if they are just 5 million!? Gong.
 

dad1

Active Member
Where is this proof of a "flood era"?
Science doesn't know either way. So why would I doubt for NO reason?


I don't appreciate you making up lies about my beliefs no matter how much you want to win. Science is of course no god to me, false god or true god.
The bible defines gods as anything put before the One true God. When He says He created and science says He did not, we must put one first.
A mechanic uses science and it's results for his job even unknowingly, but is science god for him?
That depends if it is put above all else, or kept in it's place.
Science is merely the method and collective effort of mankind that works for what is intended.
When you include the so called fake sciences that pretend to tell of the origins of life and the universe, that is not a collective effort of mankind. It is fib telling by some.
Science isn't getting "whomped",
Because you said so?
No I don't believe Jesus created all things, do you?
Looking at the forum, I now see it is multi faith. I thought it was a Christian forum, and you were coming from the perspective of a christian who did not believe the bible. My bad.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Your imagining monkeys were ancestors, and flatworms is irrelevant. Prove it.
Not the topic of this thread. Create a new one asking for evidence of why scientists consider these hominins as transitional forms and I will.


You deny that the extra millions of years in age of the prints from the usual dates cited for hominids is stark?
I deny your assertion that any extra million years is involved. 6 million years is within the currently accepted range of bipedal hominins and has been for at least the last 30 years.

Anyone can say that. They could say it was from hobbits. We need to see evidence. Have any?
The paper details the evidence of the foot structure, which I quoted in my post, from which the conclusion was drawn. Are you actually blind or something?

Timelines are part of the theory. They got clobbered.
I have conclusively established that the footprints are part of the established timelines.




In wiki, regarding the first one in your list I see this

"Existing fossils include a relatively small cranium named Toumaï ("hope of life" in the local Daza language of Chad in central Africa), five pieces of jaw, and some teeth, making up a head that has a mixture of derived and primitive features. The braincase, being only 320 cm³ to 380 cm³ in volume, is similar to that of extant chimpanzees and is notably less than the approximate human volume of 1350 cm³.[citation needed]"

So where are the prints of these so you cam claim they match? Making stuff up?
In the second link you will see that the analysis of leg bones of 6 million year old Ororin have established it to be bipedal. Here is the paper,
Orrorin tugenensis femoral morphology and the evolution of hominin bipedalism. - PubMed - NCBI

Bipedalism is a key human adaptation and a defining feature of the hominin clade. Fossil femora discovered in Kenya and attributed to Orrorin tugenensis, at 6 million years ago, purportedly provide the earliest postcranial evidence of hominin bipedalism, but their functional and phylogenetic affinities are controversial. We show that the O. tugenensis femur differs from those of apes and Homo and most strongly resembles those of Australopithecus and Paranthropus, indicating that O. tugenensis was bipedal but is not more closely related to Homo than to Australopithecus. Femoral morphology indicates that O. tugenensis shared distinctive hip biomechanics with australopiths, suggesting that this complex evolved early in human evolution and persisted for almost 4 million years until modifications of the hip appeared in the late Pliocene in early Homo.


Thus we know that two legged hominins existed 6 million years ago. So what is so surprising at finding these footprints?




Both in the bible record and in science it is unsurprising. Why would we default to your belief? That is not science.
I don't care what you believe. You claimed that the evidence in this paper somehow upends the currently accepted understanding of human evolution by science. I am showing that the evidence presented in paper does no such thing and in fact adds to the evidence for human evolution. Whether you believe science or the Bible is upto you. Why would I care?


Except this was millions of years too early, no? Except you don't know what left the prints. Etc. You think ignorance is victory?
No, it IS NOT MILLION YEARS TOO EARLY. These footprints are found in the time line in which scientists already expect to find them, as I have shown in my replies. A hominin species like Ororin or Graecopithecus made the prints, that much is clear from looking at the prints. When more fossils from Crete is found, we would pinpoint exactly which one was it, and that would be yet another confirming evidence of human evolution... just like this one was. But you are free to wallow in your know-it-all delusive ignorance based on the Biblical fairytale of yours.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The freest societies that have ever existed have been primarily populated by Christians who believe the Bible.

Bible believing Christians are free to populate such societies, but their religion was not an inspiration in their creation.

Those freedoms come from the humanist advances that characterized the Enlightenment, the onset of modernity, and the advent of the modern, liberal, democratic state with its enumerated and guaranteed personal, individual freedoms. There is nothing in the Bible about freedom of religion or speech, but there are commands to worship only the Christian god and threats regarding blaspheming it. God, the mind reader offers no right to privacy. I just read on another thread that heaven is not a democracy. God doesn't count hands. You won't be able to appeal your conviction on judgment day, and the Bible makes no case for church-state separation. The Bible commands resting on the sabbath, another affront to freedom.

Incidentally, the happiest of those societies, most in western Europe, are now principally atheistic.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm really hoping you have something better than this and become more interesting soon. I'm growing bored with your inability to debate productively or support anything you say.

Isn't that the value of a thread like this? Let's let the man speak and show us how his faith has transformed him.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member

A bit of unasked for advice for posters around here

36868607701_d72db0d25a_z.jpg


.

.

I enjoy and benefit from tapping the glass.
 

dad1

Active Member
In the second link you will see that the analysis of leg bones of 6 million year old Ororin have established it to be bipedal. Here is the paper,
Orrorin tugenensis femoral morphology and the evolution of hominin bipedalism. - PubMed - NCBI
Great so let's compare the prints to the ones found. [/QUOTE]
So? Now what about the feet? Do you have a match or not? Ha.

Bipedalism is a key human adaptation and a defining feature of the hominin clade. Fossil femora discovered in Kenya and attributed to Orrorin tugenensis, at 6 million years ago, purportedly provide the earliest postcranial evidence of hominin bipedalism, but their functional and phylogenetic affinities are controversial.
The dates are based on a belief the past nature and laws were the same. You must prove they were or you may not use that belief for dates.

So what is left? The article admits that the functional and phylogenetic affinities are controversial. So what DO you know???

We show that the O. tugenensis femur differs from those of apes and Homo and most strongly resembles those of Australopithecus and Paranthropus, indicating that O. tugenensis was bipedal but is not more closely related to Homo than to Australopithecus. Femoral morphology indicates that O. tugenensis shared distinctive hip biomechanics with australopiths, suggesting that this complex evolved early in human evolution and persisted for almost 4 million years until modifications of the hip appeared in the late Pliocene in early Homo.
That has what to do with feet?

Thus we know that two legged hominins existed 6 million years ago. So what is so surprising at finding these footprints?
Not people though.






I don't care what you believe. You claimed that the evidence in this paper somehow upends the currently accepted understanding of human evolution by science. I am showing that the evidence presented in paper does no such thing and in fact adds to the evidence for human evolution. Whether you believe science or the Bible is upto you. Why would I care?
That depends what made the prints.

No, it IS NOT MILLION YEARS TOO EARLY.
A lot more than that if it was man.

These footprints are found in the time line in which scientists already expect to find them, as I have shown in my replies. A hominin species like Ororin or Graecopithecus made the prints, that much is clear from looking at the prints. When more fossils from Crete is found, we would pinpoint exactly which one was it, and that would be yet another confirming evidence of human evolution... just like this one was. But you are free to wallow in your know-it-all delusive ignorance based on the Biblical fairytale of yours.
And if it was NOT man, which you have not even addressed yet, your dates are wrong anyhow.

After all, the OP article said this

"Human feet have a very distinctive shape, different from all other land animals. The combination of a long sole, five short forward-pointing toes without claws, and a hallux ("big toe") that is larger than the other toes, is unique. The feet of our closest relatives, the great apes, look more like a human hand with a thumb-like hallux that sticks out to the side. The Laetoli footprints, thought to have been made by Australopithecus, are quite similar to those of modern humans except that the heel is narrower and the sole lacks a proper arch

With rapid evolution, changes such as this seem minimal. So who knows?
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So? Now what about the feet? Do you have a match or not? Ha.

The dates are based on a belief the past nature and laws were the same. You must prove they were or you may not use that belief for dates.

So what is left? The article admits that the functional and phylogenetic affinities are controversial. So what DO you know???

That has what to do with feet?

Not people though.
Sorry to disappoint you, but science of evolution accepts the evidence from the science of physics that the laws of nature have remained constant for the last 13 billion years since the Big Bang. If you have objections to the established conclusions of physics regarding this matter, please create a separate thread explaining your reasons. I will comment there and refute your reasons. In evolutionary biology, scientists simply use the conclusions made by the more fundamental science of physics to establish dates.

As the article regarding Ororin shows, bipedal hominins were living 6 million years ago and hence were one of the candidate living species that could have made those prints. What makes it a transitional species between humans and apes is the fact that it contains a mixture of ape-like and human-like skeletal features. Thus, as Wikipedia says, it's teeth were a mixture of ape features and human features. It was bipedal on ground but climbed trees like apes.

Orrorin had small teeth relative to its body size. Its dentition differs from that found in Australopithecus in that its cheek teeth are smaller and less elongated mesiodistally and from Ardipithecus in that its enamel is thicker. The dentition differs from both these species in the presence of a mesial groove on the upper canines. The canines are ape-like but reduced, like those found in Miocene apes and female chimpanzees. Orrorin had small post-canines and was microdont, like modern humans, whereas robust australopithecines were megadont. [4]In the femur, the head is spherical and rotated anteriorly; the neck is elongated and oval in section and the lesser trochanter protrudes medially. While these suggest that Orrorin was bipedal, the rest of the postcranium indicates it climbed trees. While the proximal phalanx is curved, the distal pollical phalanx is of human proportions and has thus been associated with toolmaking, but should probably be associated with grasping abilities useful for tree-climbing in this context.[4]

--------------------

Next the evidence of the prints themselves establish that they were indeed made by bipedal hominins... not other apes or man or bears. Here is the paper again
Possible hominin footprints from the late Miocene (c. 5.7 Ma) of Crete?


The comparative analysis is shown
1-s2.0-S001678781730113X-gr12.jpg


Comparison with different trackmakers. Comparison of Trachilos footprint with bears (top), non-hominin primates (middle), and hominins (bottom). (a) Brown bear manus print, photo by A.A. (b) Cast of grizzly bear manus print, photo by M.L. In bears (and other Carnivora) the hallux is morphologically similar to digit 2. (c) Vervet monkey pes print, photo by G.G. (d) Lowland gorilla pes and knuckle prints, photo by Julie Dewilde. (e) chimpanzee pes print, from Meldrum et al. (2011). In non-hominin primates the hallux is morphologically distinctive but separated from the other digits by a wide gap. (f) modern human pes print, photo by G.N. (g) Trachilos footprint shown in Fig. 9b. (h) modern human foot, photo by P.E.A. (i) Archaic Homo footprint from Ileret, from Bennett et al. (2009). In hominins, the hallux is large and morphologically distinctive but positioned close to digit 2; there is also a distinct ball.


What are the conclusions?

1)The big toe of the footprint is near the front of the feet like hominins and modern humans and unlike apes and monkeys. Thus the footprints were not made by apes or monkeys. As the paper says

"The hind feet of non-hominin primates have strongly divergent thumb-like halluces, always set back from the relatively long lateral digits. Chimpanzees (Fig. 12e) produce characteristic L-shaped footprints with a wide gap between the hallux and curled lateral digits".

2) The footprints are similar to footprints found in hominins as it has a well developed Big Toe and it walked on the soles of its feet. As the paper says:
"The Trachilos tracks resemble hominin prints (Leakey and Hay, 1979; Harcourt-Smith and Aiello, 2004; Bennett et al., 2009; Bennett et al., 2016a; Bennett et al., 2016b ; Lockley et al., 2016) due to their plantigrade and entaxonic nature."
When compared quantitavely with footprints of Australopithecus hominins, modern humans and apes it was found that the footprints are similar in structure to other hominin footprints and different from apes and modern humans. As the paper says :-
To explore the morphology of the tracks, they were compared using a landmark-based approach with both non-hominin primate and hominin tracks....
The implication is that there are greater anatomical similarities between the Trachilos tracks and those of hominins than there are with the non-hominin primate control group.


That depends what made the prints.

A lot more than that if it was man.

No, it was not made by man. Again the footprint itself shows this. As the paper says:-
"compared to a modern human sole print it is proportionately shorter, with a narrow tapering heel, and lacks a permanent arch.. the tracks would represent a small, primitive, habitually bipedal hominin with hominin-like pedal digits and ball combined with an ape-like sole lacking a bulbous heel. "
So we have a small bipedal animal whose feet had a mixture of ape and human features. And do we know such animals existing 6 million years ago. YES. We know that Ororin, a hominin, was such a creature.. transitional between modern man and ancient ape, as shown earlier.

Hence we, and paper, concludes that these footprints were not made by man, nor apes, but a Ororin like hominin. As it says:-

" The age of the Trachilos footprints, though strikingly early, is not problematic for this hypothesis: assuming an age of slightly more than 5.6 Ma (Fig. 14), they are approximately coeval with Orrorin and somewhat younger than Sahelanthropus ( Sénut et al., 2001; Brunet et al., 2002 ; Almécija et al., 2013). "

As the comparison between hominin fossils and footprints shows, these add to the evidence for early bipedalism evolution of hominins like Ororin and strengthens the evidence for established science of human evolution.

1-s2.0-S001678781730113X-gr14.jpg


And if it was NOT man, which you have not even addressed yet, your dates are wrong anyhow.
Please create a separate thread providing your reasons for your claim that laws of physics were different in the past and I will respond. Evolutionary biologists depend on physics scientists for measuring dates and evidence for uniformity of laws since the Big Bang throughout the universe will take us into Physics. So make a separate thread. I will respond there.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Looking at the forum, I now see it is multi faith. I thought it was a Christian forum, and you were coming from the perspective of a christian who did not believe the bible. My bad.
Yes, maybe now that you have some understanding where you are, maybe you can start over with the right foot.
 
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