You quote him and then completely misunderstand his point. He was NOT arguing that there is no evidence for evolution. Quite the contrary.
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Modern man like footprints found, evolution theory in doubt.
- Thread starter dad1
- Start date
You quote him and then completely misunderstand his point. He was NOT arguing that there is no evidence for evolution. Quite the contrary.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Most theologians do not believe that humans are made in God's "physical" image but that they have a "soul" that's from God.
They tend to believe that God set everything in motion, only periodically intervening.
Sorry to cut this short.
dad1
Active Member
My claim is science don't know. Doesn't know what made the prints, man or beast. Doesn't know the state of the past. Now you could try to show it does, or keep sniveling.
dad1
Active Member
It doesn't work at all out of the fishbowl..of the present state.
Produce evidence of a same state past, or even what made the prints in the OP, or face the truth about science being stuck in the present state fishbowl.
Origins sciences already did that.
Exactly.
dad1
Active Member
I am not denying that man could not leave remains in the former state. I am not denying you could not know either way! i AM NOT DENYING YOU DON'T KNOW HOW FAST EVOLVING USED TO GO ON, OR THAT YOU CAN'T DATE THE EARTH. Why pretend your shell of a busted belief set has anything at all worth denying?
dad1
Active Member
Then He wrote the bible to say He did not?
gnostic
The Lost One
The lists don't have any date or age, just the name of rulers in hieroglyphs.
That the names are also found inscribed in their tombs (eg pyramids, mastabas or mortuary temples) of these rulers, confirmed their historical existences.
It is these tombs that can be dated, not the lists.
You are a complete fool.
gnostic
The Lost One
The only person I don't see much intelligence, is you dad1.
You have made a lot of claims, but have presented no evidences.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
So if you are driving down the street and see a cow on a roof, you know someone put the cow up there. It didn't just happen. It didn't jump up there.... it didn't fly up there... it didn't teleport up there... it didn't wander up there.... millions and millions of butterflies didn't lift it up there...
Psalm 125 - Believers are like mountains and God like mountains around that mountain.
Discussion guide week 5 - Psalm 125
Psalm 125 - Believers are like mountains and God like mountains around that mountain.
Discussion guide week 5 - Psalm 125
I have already demonstrated that the laws of physics were the same in the past. Did you look at my reply at all?
You expect him to understand that reply? It was well-reasoned, data based, factual, and clearly written. of course he didn't understand it!
Looncall
Well-Known Member
Do you have anything to support your comment about the Oklo reactor? As a radiochemist, I have a professional interest.
Searching the internet, I find material from impeccable sources, none of which express doubts as to its reality.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
I'm not participating in your stupid little game, where you take the position that because you believe in magic, no one can ever know anything for sure.
dad1
Active Member
Can you prove they were all sequential and post flood? Know who wrote the list, was it some part time kitchen help, or a scholar?
Oh? All of them?
Back to the inevitable same state past belief based so called dating eh? Circular.
dad1
Active Member
The evidence for you not having proof of your same state past is clear. You post none. You have no capacity to deal with issues. So we see the sniveling.
dad1
Active Member
How does this relate to the topic? I think we know someone made the prints.
dad1
Active Member
No you did not even begin to, did you miss why?
The challenge to established theories of human evolution presented here is not a refutation of the theory of evolution nor a refutation of human evolution. This is a single report regarding newly discovered evidence and this is only the beginning of the research and not the end. It may change our understanding of how long the evolution leading to our species took, where it occurred or where it started, but this doesn't withdraw evolution from the running. It is not unusual for those opposed to a position to selectively focus on something that seemingly supports there view. With this latest example I have seen it happen several times already where laymen have jumped at the the "challenges established theories" and read "refutes evolution".
What is presented here is evidence of human-like footprints, much older than expected, in a location that outside of the presumed center of origin of humankind--Africa. It is another piece of the puzzle of our origins. It may be the beginnings of an expansion of our understanding of our own evolution. This adds to our knowledge of human evolution and doesn't throw it out.
With regards to a flood, there is no evidence that a global flood--fitting the description of that found in the Bible--occurred anytime in the last 20,000,000 years. Even stretching our origins, with this new find, doesn't put hominin ancestry back that far and it certainly wouldn't be human since we have only existed between 200,000 to 300,000 years. Then consider also, that physics tells us that such a flood is not possible. The actual consequences would have resulted in temperatures and pressures that would have sterilized the earth of all living things. Not even a small boat would have survived it.
I read elsewhere on this thread and another poster mentioned Gilgamesh. This seems the most likely origin of the biblical flood story has become a common theme in Christianity. A story that most likely developed as an oral tradition about some catastrophic local or regional flood. It seemed like it enveloped the world to those that experienced it, because their world wasn't that big at the time in the sense of their perspective.
It will be interesting to see where this new evidence leads us. It has the potential to change our understanding of our own evolution, but it is not removing evolution from the picture.
dad1
Active Member
The site is underwater now. They flooded it. A little hard to go back and check the claims. The story of Oklo though does include the following claims.
"Today even the most massive and concentrated uranium deposit cannot become a nuclear reactor, because the
uranium 235 concentration, at less than
1 percent, is just too low.
1[so they assume that differences existed..proof?]
But this isotope
is radioactive and decays about six times
faster than does uranium 238, which indicates
that the fissile fraction was much
higher in the distant past. For example,
two billion years ago (about when the
Oklo deposit formed) uranium 235 must
have constituted approximately 3 percent,
2
["Must have"??? Prove it]
The third important ingredient is a
neutron “moderator,” a substance that
can slow the neutrons given off when a
uranium nucleus splits so that they are
more apt to induce other uranium nuclei
to break apart
3[so we need water every few hours for millions of years?]
Cowan described, for example, how
some of the neutrons released during the
fission of uranium 235 were captured by
the more abundant uranium 238, which
became uranium 239 and, after emitting
two electrons, turned into plutonium
239.
4[after being kissed by the tooth fairy?][prove there was a same state past and the great time needed first]
Although almost all this
material, which has a 24,000-year halflife,
has since disappeared (primarily
through natural radioactive decay),
5[ah, the case of the missing stuff-prove it was ever really here -they can't]
The
abundance of those lighter elements allowed
scientists to deduce that fission
reactions 'must have' gone on for hundreds
of thousands of years.
6
[missing stuff forces same state past conclusion!]
From the
amount of uranium 235 'consumed', [i.e. missing!] they
calculated the total energy released,
15,000 megawatt-years, and from this
and other evidence were able to 'work out'
the average power output,
7
[present state calculations][if the missing stuff existed it would have taken so many eons to disapear]
It is truly amazing that more than a
dozen natural reactors spontaneously
sprang into existence and that they managed
to maintain a modest power output
for perhaps a few hundred millennia.
8
[truly amazing indeed] [prove it]
Xenon
is extremely rare, which allows scientists
to use it to detect and trace nuclear
reactions, even those that occurred in
primitive meteorites before the solar system
came into existence.
To analyze the isotopic composition
9
[attribute all this gas to same state causes...absurd][as mentioned the whole site is underwater now, no one can recheck work]
We applied this technique to many
tiny spots on our lone available fragment
of Oklo rock, only one millimeter thick
and four millimeters across.
10
[all this fable based on a teensy fragment. wow]
The second epiphany was that the extracted
gas had a significantly different
isotopic makeup from what is usually
produced in nuclear reactors.
11
[so there was a difference...from what we now see]
'seemingly' lost a large portion of the xenon
136 and 134 that would 'certainly'
have been created from fission, whereas
the lighter varieties of the element were
modified to a lesser extent.
12
[large amount of missing stuff that golly gee must have created actual stuff]
For example,
measured with respect to the
amount of xenon 132 present, the depletion
of xenon 136 (being four atomicmass
units heavier) would have been
twice that of xenon 134 (two atomic mass
units heavier) if physical sorting had operated.
We did not see that pattern.
13
[IF physical sorting of the present kind existed...who says it did? so now we need to look at sorting in the former state as a possible cause rather than reaction]
None of the xenon isotopes
we measured were the direct result
of uranium fission. Rather they were the
products of the decay of radioactive isotopes
of iodine, which in turn were
formed from radioactive tellurium and
so forth, according to a well-known sequence
of nuclear reactions that gives
rise to stable xenon.
14 [this became that and that became this and on and on in a same state dream fest]
xenon
136 began at Oklo only about a
minute after the onset of self-sustained
fi ssion. An hour later the next lighter
stable isotope, xenon 134, appeared.
Then, some days after the start of fission,
xenon 132 and 131 came on the
scene. Finally, after millions of years,
and well after the nuclear chain reactions
terminated, xenon 129 formed.
15 [woulda coulda]
The
most likely mechanism involves the action
of groundwater, which presumably
'boiled away' after the temperature
reached some critical level.
16[same state speculation][any proof that a river ran through it that long geologically?]
very likely they pulsed
on and off in some fashion, and large
quantities of water 'must have' been moving
through these rocks—enough to
wash away some of the xenon precursors,
tellurium and iodine, which are
water-soluble.
17[large quantities of water must have...must have ..must have...same state religion][not claimed because we know water did exist at this spot...but because they need it to have]
another—it is
unlikely that aluminum phosphate minerals
were present before the Oklo reactors
began operating.
18[says who?]['billions of imaginary years ago before the reactors started, some stuff must have existed]
Instead those
grains of aluminum phosphate 'probably'
formed in place through the action of the
nuclear-heated water, once it had cooled
to about 300 degrees Celsius.
19[speculation in the extreme]
During each active period of operation
of an Oklo reactor and for some
time afterward, while the temperature
remained high, much of the xenon gas
(including xenon 136 and 134, which
were generated relatively quickly) was
'driven off'.
20[missing stuff again with same state beliefs][in this case the stuff was 'driven off' ha]
incorporated into growing grains of aluminum
phosphate.
21[remember they said it was unlikely that aluminum was there before the 'reactions' they don't really know]
Then, as more water
returned to the reaction zone, neutrons
became properly moderated and fission
once again resumed, allowing the cycle
of heating and cooling to repeat. The result
was the peculiar segregation of xenon
isotopes we uncovered.
22[The result of what? The result of the water they imagine 'HAD to' be there for millenia and in the right time and amount]
It is not entirely obvious what forces
kept this xenon inside the aluminum
phosphate minerals for almost half the
planet’s lifetime. In particular, why was
the xenon generated during a given operational
pulse not driven off during the
next one?
23[GIANT leap of faith]
Presumably it became imprisoned
in the cagelike structure of the aluminum
phosphate minerals, which were
able to hold on to the xenon gas created
within them, even at high temperatures.
The details remain fuzzy, but whatever
the final answers are, one thing is clear:
the capacity of aluminum phosphate
24[WTF?]
The Oklo reactor
we studied had switched “on” for 30 minutes
and “off” for at least 2.5 hours. [for eons]
. The more
important lessons may be about how to
handle nuclear waste. Oklo, after all,
serves as a good analogue for a long-term
geologic repository,
25 [dangerous false prophesy]
The Oklo reactors may also teach scientists
about possible shifts in what was
formerly thought to be a fundamental
physical constant, one called (alpha),
which controls such universal quantities
as the speed of light [see “Inconstant
Constants,” by John D. Barrow and John
K. Webb; Scientifi c American, June].
26
[fables like Oklo form basis of alpha now?]
For three decades, the two-billion-year old
Oklo phenomenon has been used to
argue against alpha having changed. But last
year Steven K. Lamoreaux and Justin R.
Torgerson of Los Alamos National Laboratory
drew on Oklo to posit that this
“constant” has, in fact, varied signifi -
cantly (and, strangely enough, in the opposite
sense from what others have recently
proposed).
27 [so - opposite now of what they said then]
-------- this was from old notes,
The Workings of an Ancient Nuclear Reactor
I could also dig up where they claimed the site was miles under if you like. Then it came back to the surface.
Then there is the interesting fact that Cowan was in the Manhattan Project if I recall. I think he presided over different groups of people who knew nothing of each others work, so he is used to intrigue.