Modesty In Islam

[Storm]

Storm, these are the requirements of the hijab:

• Covering the whole body except the face and the hands
• The hair should be covered along with the ears, neck and chest.
• The clothing should not be transparent and should be loose in order not to describe the body of the woman.
• The woman should not wear make up while in public.

We have these requirements, so we multiple choice to choose the dresses that we like, modern and fashionable, and which meet the hijab requirements at the same time. For example, I do wear trousers but I wear with them shirts, dresses... that are loose and long under the knees.

But one should know that wearing the hijab and being modest doesn't mean only the covering but also good manners and behaviors. Hijab is an entire way of dressing, believing and behaving.

I see. Thank you.

You could visit another Islamic center, which should be for all Muslims and non-Muslims, if there is any one nearby.

I think I'll look for one.

 

[Starsoul]

So, while I don't dispute the emphasis on modesty, I do wonder why it clings to ancient fashion.

My answer would be different from the rest, I agree modesty can be defined differently and what some muslim may say about it could be what they personally feel about following the dress code, but the reason why we actually follow the dress code isn't modesty; it is because we submit to The One True God, Allah.

We believe that all knowledge, all goodness, all wisdom and all power belongs to He, and He recommends only the best for us, and that best is the most enjoyable , when we believe it to be the best since it is coming form the best. When we submit to that truth, our dress code not only brings us joy, it spreads a serenity over souls , a sense of re-assured self confidence which does not come from any garment , than that of modesty which is brought Not by dressing a certain way( it may be a symbol of modesty) but actually by submitting to the will of Allah.

It is only He who means the best for His creation in the most plausible way, and what he ordains as the best cannot be replaced, substantiated by any second bests which come from even a combined group of the most intellectual, sincere human minds. So, till now, you will find some girls who don't like wearing hijab, their problem is not modesty or decency, they probably just miss out on the depth and strength of their closeness to the Creator, in one way or the other, and following that dress code doesn't feel good to them, they see it as a burden, it is not an enjoyable experience for them .( they might even say that they feel close to Allah and feel that they don't require it as per their understanding, and say we're close enough without following this command already so no need to be, umm more close, (I think, could be wrong), but I think that the relationship with the creator is ever growing, it can never just stop, there's always room for more. )

And then you will see some who are willing to die for their right to wear it, since they are able to derive immense inspiration and closeness to Allah, and they will never ever trade it for anything in the whole wide world, because that joy, and that sense of being close to the creator is irreplaceable, unparalleled by any other feeling they know.

Take the hijab. It's gone from being an item of clothing to the symbol of Islamic womanhood. Certain (misguided) Western institution try to ban it, while certain (also misguided) Islamic nations mandate it. A lot of fuss for a piece of clothing, don't you think?

Like I said above, its not just a piece of clothing, its a source of bonding close to the Love of the Creator, by following what He says .( we all follow wishes of those who we love the most, even if they go against us sometimes, but in this case since we know that Allah only means the best for us so we have no doubt over this). So whenever we disobey His commands, it brings us great internal turmoil, great disturbance, lack of peace of mind, and our faith starts deteriorating and our relationship with the creator suffers a lot.

There are people who dress up that way for cultural reasons, and you will find them frequently changing attires whenever their cultural surroundings change, but people who dress that way for closeness to Allah, you will never see them shun their dress wherever they go, non muslims may be able to just label it as an identity symbol of muslim women, but in reality it is a lot more than that. ( I hope though that you know that muslim women dress that way only when they go out, or are in company of strange men, i.e men who are not related to them, the rest of the times, they can wear anything they like which is suitable)

Anyway, one of the explanations was that values don't change. I think that's obviously incorrect, as it should be. Society progresses, and Muslims are not immune.

Thats right, human values keep changing because Humans are not absolute. We all die, everything that we see around us has an expiry date. It is Only the Absolute truth which Never changes. An absolute truth that was always there, before we were, and after everything. Muslims submit to that absolute truth,ie the One-ness of Allah, all power all wisdom of the Creator and that truth binds us to our values. No amount of human progress can be bigger or better than the social progress that is described by Allah, we humans know some details of only a few civilizations, He knows the details of behaviors of ALL civilizations, he knows what goes on in our minds and how we behave the best.

So far as muslims are concerned, they have been told to wait for the day that this world is going to collapse, non msulims think that societies will always progress, muslims are told that progress isn't having a great house, a nice car, a beautiful family , a nice degree and etc, since many highly progressed societies have completely been wiped off the face of the Earth, the pyramids of egyt still amaze us with their architecture, but that civilization is gone, who would've thought they'd ever be wiped out, if they did, they'd atleast not make such humongous structures for themselves risking their lives.

Hence, our definitions of success, worldly progress is way beyond the material realms of the world. Allah says in the Quran (something like), that when the day of judgment will arrive upon you, the oldest man will be asked, so how much do you think ,was your stay on earth? and the person would say, about just a day? and a half probably, not more? Our definitions of success, are all tied to the life of the here after.

In christianity,( I wish to be corrected if I'm wrong) I was told that when things go alright according to the worldly fake standards of happiness, the Lord is happy with you, and when they do not, means that the lord is not happy with you, and that thought depresses unfortunate people where they convince themselves they no longer have to please a Lord who is so hard to please .

Islam does not subscribe to this concept. In Islam, this life is just a test, for the rich and for the poor, where all sorts of people are placed in different environments, with different resources, and we have to make the best of those resources that are available to us: all we have to do is make an effort. Allah says " I will not ask you for good results, that is upon me, I will just see how sincerely you made the effort".

Now can you describe any human system that functions on the purity of intentions and sincerity? None, they all want results, and failing to give a desired result not only discourages us, it may well make us feel very undesire-able by the society, and maybe cursed by your lord which causes a lot frustration ( if some other beliefs were to be followed).

So what I was really trying to say is, that when we are not happy/content with our inner selves, no amount of worldly progress can bring you a growing contentment, the way submission to Allah does, all that worldly happiness is temporary. How long does the joy of any thing that we really like usually lasts? not longer than we wish it to last. It is only the sense of finding the creator that overshadows all happiness, all sorrow, all worries and transcends all worldly happiness, there is just no match.

I know many people say oh we're happy enough we have a perfect life, perfect family and etc, but that concept of happiness is very non-inclusive of unfortunate people, who don't have good families, or any families at all and are poor and distressed. It is only Islam that includes people from all spheres of life into the fold of happiness by not placing the financial burden/social status classifications on them, but just by urging them to know more about God as it brings them happiness, no matter in which ever circumstances. ( that is not to say that they are to not to work and progress in the world, it is just to stress to not focus entirely on the worldly aspect of material happiness and in the long run missing out on the real one.)

Lastly, Allah also says,(something like in the Quran) That "I never reject a sincere prayer for true guidance, that is the right of man upon me." So whoever will seek guidance with a humble and sincere heart, he will find it.

Sorry it took a long explanation, but just couldn't stop midway

 

[Looncall]

I stated it's important because our doctrine says modesty is important. I just feel that it's over-emphasized and modesty is so variable based on culture and individual comfort. i'm outgoing, but modest as well. It's possible to be both.



There is no evidence that pants are not allowed in Islam; it's all interpretation-based. Again, culture is a huge factor. Wearing pants in Saudi Arabia would certainly draw more attention than wearing pants in Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc.

This demonstrates one of my major complaints against religion: unthinking obedience to doctrine. It atrophies real moral thinking. Do you have a good justification for this modesty requirement, or do you just slavishly follow dogma?

 

[Starsoul]

Well in that case, I have a problem with modern non religious consumer obsessed thinking pattern too, it slavishly submits to the idols of the money minting fashion dogma, without questioning its moral implications in the society, confining what we wear, eat, drink, how we live according to what the media, the advertisements and the etc indoctrinate you with. Or else skulk in silence in the back ground being labelled a looser for not being able to follow the fashion trends of hannah montana, please, do not say now that , that is not moral atrophy.

Where you are being bombarded by a numerous money thirsty corporations/organizations/companies,( which only aim at clever devices to make you spend more than you really need to, in order to fill their bank accounts) and yet actually successfully make people think that they are free, free form what!??? free to buy themselves deep into debt?

That you submit to a thousands idols/ strong suggestions/ideas of happiness( which just focus on your wallet, nothing like peace of mind or tranquility) and you buy stuff, submit to the fast changing fashion trends, gadget trends and etc, basing your entire worth on the amount and quality of your material baggage, indebted for life for your cost of living; is a LOT more slavish and foolish than submitting your will to the will of one God whose standards never change, who does not ask you for your money but rather asks for you to give it to the poor instead of buying all that useless stuff in excess, party around all the time and then whine about 'why doesn't God take care of humanity?"

Just sometime ago a teenager in US tried to commit suicide because her parents were unable to get her an iphone, a gadget? is this what all this fashion obsessed consumerism all about, degrading your worth, risking your life for a shiny toy? If not, then how come that teenager thought so? why do most teenagers whine to their parents, talk loud to them, disrespect them, have no regard for them, as long as they have their own iphones and pcs and all that fashion stuff, why are they unable to discipline themselves? Isn't their freedom to choose to act sensibly actually being snatched away from them in the name of enabling them to even steal, fight and kill themselves for all that shiny stuff?

Lets take the Us for example, if freedom is all about letting loose your expression of desires, why does the Us have an ever climbing and undisputed highest crime rate in the whole world? Shouldn't that freedom have brought some peace of mind and some restrain on criminal urges, which can range from rape, pedophilia, murders, frauds and what not. Is THAT the expression of freedom? Is there something not wrong with it? Is this what anyone would call a moral high?

 

[beenie]

This demonstrates one of my major complaints against religion: unthinking obedience to doctrine. It atrophies real moral thinking. Do you have a good justification for this modesty requirement, or do you just slavishly follow dogma?

haha, funny that you're asking ME that question. Have you read my posts?

I also agree with Starsoul; we are all victims of dogma. Secular dogma is no better than religious.

 

[Looncall]

Well in that case, I have a problem with modern non religious consumer obsessed thinking pattern too, it slavishly submits to the idols of the money minting fashion dogma, without questioning its moral implications in the society, confining what we wear, eat, drink, how we live according to what the media, the advertisements and the etc indoctrinate you with. Or else skulk in silence in the back ground being labelled a looser for not being able to follow the fashion trends of hannah montana, please, do not say now that , that is not moral atrophy.

Where you are being bombarded by a numerous money thirsty corporations/organizations/companies,( which only aim at clever devices to make you spend more than you really need to, in order to fill their bank accounts) and yet actually successfully make people think that they are free, free form what!??? free to buy themselves deep into debt?

That you submit to a thousands idols/ strong suggestions/ideas of happiness( which just focus on your wallet, nothing like peace of mind or tranquility) and you buy stuff, submit to the fast changing fashion trends, gadget trends and etc, basing your entire worth on the amount and quality of your material baggage, indebted for life for your cost of living; is a LOT more slavish and foolish than submitting your will to the will of one God whose standards never change, who does not ask you for your money but rather asks for you to give it to the poor instead of buying all that useless stuff in excess, party around all the time and then whine about 'why doesn't God take care of humanity?"

Just sometime ago a teenager in US tried to commit suicide because her parents were unable to get her an iphone, a gadget? is this what all this fashion obsessed consumerism all about, degrading your worth, risking your life for a shiny toy? If not, then how come that teenager thought so? why do most teenagers whine to their parents, talk loud to them, disrespect them, have no regard for them, as long as they have their own iphones and pcs and all that fashion stuff, why are they unable to discipline themselves? Isn't their freedom to choose to act sensibly actually being snatched away from them in the name of enabling them to even steal, fight and kill themselves for all that shiny stuff?

Lets take the Us for example, if freedom is all about letting loose your expression of desires, why does the Us have an ever climbing and undisputed highest crime rate in the whole world? Shouldn't that freedom have brought some peace of mind and some restrain on criminal urges, which can range from rape, pedophilia, murders, frauds and what not. Is THAT the expression of freedom? Is there something not wrong with it? Is this what anyone would call a moral high?

It's interesting that you cite the US, which is a highly religious society. In fact, social disorders correlate with religiosity generally. Perhaps you should consider more secular societies, such as Scandinavia.

However, muslims are in no position to complain of others' morality, especially when muslim-dominated societies are such morasses of corruption, torture, violence and poverty.

 

[Landerage]

It's interesting that you cite the US, which is a highly religious society. In fact, social disorders correlate with religiosity generally. Perhaps you should consider more secular societies, such as Scandinavia.

However, muslims are in no position to complain of others' morality, especially when muslim-dominated societies are such morasses of corruption, torture, violence and poverty.

Please review more historical facts about Islam society wise before sting your last sentence not based on any fact.
One of the great nations that were Islamic societies was well rich and corruption free that people didn't ask for money, and justice was well served that jails were empty, as of today's nations they're enduring with great changes towards the better , I hope, changes need time.

 

[Looncall]

Please review more historical facts about Islam society wise before sting your last sentence not based on any fact.
One of the great nations that were Islamic societies was well rich and corruption free that people didn't ask for money, and justice was well served that jails were empty, as of today's nations they're enduring with great changes towards the better , I hope, changes need time.

Indeed some muslim societies did well in the past, but all that was abandoned. I don't think those societies were as wonderful as you seem to think. Tyranny and cruelty seem to have always been present. I am more concerned with the present state of things.

I too hope that current changes will lead to improvements. I don't know if I expect that will happen or not. Perhaps in some countries. In some, probably not. Pakistan, for example, seems to be sliding downhill all the time and I suppose Afghanistan will always be a basket case.

 

[beenie]

Indeed some muslim societies did well in the past, but all that was abandoned. I don't think those societies were as wonderful as you seem to think. Tyranny and cruelty seem to have always been present. I am more concerned with the present state of things.

I too hope that current changes will lead to improvements. I don't know if I expect that will happen or not. Perhaps in some countries. In some, probably not. Pakistan, for example, seems to be sliding downhill all the time and I suppose Afghanistan will always be a basket case.

Pakistan is a self-destructing feudalistic country. Any religious title it gives itself is a shell. Feudal lords have ruled Pakistan since its inception, and will continue to do so until the population gets fed up enough to do something about it. Until then, it will continue slide downhill.

 

[Landerage]

Pakistan is a self-destructing feudalistic country. .

very well said, a nation who's inside is fragile even if muslim will collapse pretty fast

 

[Breathe]

It's not typical, it's cultural in this case.

This is something I have wondered often: how much of it is being posed as religious obligation when it is cultural or even personal?

For example, the imam at the local masjid told me that "good Muslim women do not wear skirts or dresses - a Muslimah wears trousers" and he was met with a nod of approval from one of the other Muslim members (another imam? I dunno, we were in an office-y bit). Until very recently.

Incorporating this into the topic: how do you know what is religiously required covering, and what is traditional or cultural? If you're wearing something not religiously required, is it ok to remove it even if you are in a culture or community where it would be frowned upon?

I've seen quite a few Muslim women who keep their hijab in a handbag, and only put it on when they were going (where I presume was) home. I don't presume to know why they did this, but if we presume for a second they did it because they did not believe the head covering was a required part of the religion (a girl in one of my classes was a pious Muslim; when I asked her where her hijab was, she said that she interpreted the Hadith where Muhammad said a woman should be covered except for her hands and face to include the hair can be uncovered) - is any opposition to these views doctrinal or traditional, in your views?

 

[beenie]

This is something I have wondered often: how much of it is being posed as religious obligation when it is cultural or even personal?

That's an excellent question, and one that is very difficult to answer. If you ask people whether their practice is religious or cultural, they will automatically answer "religious". However, given that different cultures who share the same religion practice certain things differently (neither wrong, just different) leads me to believe that culture plays a hand in day-to-day practices. For instance, African Muslims (living in Africa) have adapted modesty to their environment; many women cover their hair, but not their necks due to extreme heat (and their working environment if they work in the fields). It's really a tough call most of the time.

For example, the imam at the local masjid told me that "good Muslim women do not wear skirts or dresses - a Muslimah wears trousers" and he was met with a nod of approval from one of the other Muslim members (another imam? I dunno, we were in an office-y bit). Until very recently.

That's funny, because most scholars I've observed say that long dresses and skirts are preferred over trousers because the shape of the leg is better hidden in dresses/skirts. Of course, the dresses and skirts need to be long and loose to meet the requirement (in these scholars' opinions).

Incorporating this into the topic: how do you know what is religiously required covering, and what is traditional or cultural? If you're wearing something not religiously required, is it ok to remove it even if you are in a culture or community where it would be frowned upon?

The Qur'an and Hadith are the source for our direction of how to observe modesty. It is interpretable to some extent, and that's why you'll see Muslims wearing anything from burqas to western clothing, some with hijab (headscarf) and some without. Depending on where you live, removing certain clothing will have different circumstances; that part is cultural. Removing a burqa in Pakistan won't have the same response as removing it in Saudi Arabia, for instance. Same goes for the headscarf.

I've seen quite a few Muslim women who keep their hijab in a handbag, and only put it on when they were going (where I presume was) home. I don't presume to know why they did this, but if we presume for a second they did it because they did not believe the head covering was a required part of the religion (a girl in one of my classes was a pious Muslim; when I asked her where her hijab was, she said that she interpreted the Hadith where Muhammad said a woman should be covered except for her hands and face to include the hair can be uncovered) - is any opposition to these views doctrinal or traditional, in your views?

Those girls are possibly being coerced by family or their social group to wear the hijab, so they are caught in the middle of what they are told to do and what they want to do. They'll find their way eventually.

 

[Koldaramor]

This is not part of the DIR. If the message does not clear.
I would like to make comments as an ex-Muslim.

Storm The biggest difference of Islam and Christianity, is the area of public and private.
Christianity was the debate in the public sphere. These are bourgeois, state management, capital management, etc.. They appeared on the big debate. But it was concluded.

Islam does not matter much in the public domain. Discussions related to private life in Islam. These, men to marry four women, sex life, alcohol use, hijab. The most important hijab. In fact, the backbone of Islam hijab. Quran and hadith are clear limits to be put. It is impossible to change these rules belong on.

On the other hand ssainhu right. This dress varies from culture to culture.


if i did, grammar mistakes, i am sorry.

 

[Starsoul]

This video sheds some light on some parts of modesty..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH09SMDJKzs&feature=player_embedded]‪ISR Season 4 Episode 13: Modesty - Muslema Purmul‬‏