Moksha and who is "worthy" of it

[NobodyYouKnow]

So now for another one of my complicated questions

Do you think moksha is attainable by other religions? If so which ones?

If not what do you think happens to "good" people who have "matured" spiritually, do they reincarnate as a Hindu?

Namaste.

Asking myself and/or Shiva such complex questions at a very young age, is what led me to totally explore esoteric Hinduism and then keep my heart and faith firmly established within it.

The only problem with being like this, is that I am trying not to sound too 'Osho-ish' in my replies...but I shall try:

Do you think moksha is attainable by other religions? If so which ones?

Moksha is something 'attainable' (there is nothing to 'attain' because it's already there) on an impersonal level regardless of religion...regardless of even 'Moksha' itself.

Thus, in addition to Hinduism, all of the Buddhist teachings have also pretty much nailed it (especially Taoism and the Tao Teh Ching), some branches of Sufi thought too. Some of the native Tribal beliefs also have 'Shamans' and those who have great knowledge and 'siddhis'.

* I am reading 'The Varieties of Religious Experience' by William James as I type this, actually. If you read that and you will also know how these things all come to pass.

If not what do you think happens to "good" people who have "matured" spiritually, do they reincarnate as a Hindu?

If such 'good people' have really 'matured spiritually', they wouldn't even reincarnate as anything at all - they are already immersed in Brahman/Tao/The Holy Name that Cannot be Spoken/Buddha-Nature - I mean, whatever you call that State that marks the transition from Savikalpa to Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

If this is not achieved, they will simply reincarnate as whatever their Karma dictates they will reincarnate as.....the 'reincarnating Soul' knows no Religion...only the 'good soul' will be reborn with a head full of wisdom and a heart full of love.

Om Namah Shivaya.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram MV ji :namaste

Explain. Because, I don't want moksha. I want to party with Russian people in Goa.

then if you dont want moksa I dont need to explain ....

but mean while I want to party with jaganath in orissa , ....then you get moksa too

 

[chinu]

Explain. Because, I don't want moksha. I want to party with Russian people in Goa.

If so, than very soon AIDS microorganisms will party with you.

 

[Poeticus]

If so, than very soon AIDS microorganisms will party with you.

I find it extremely odd that the first thing you thought of was sex-related.

 

[chinu]

I find it extremely odd that the first thing you thought of was sex-related.

What if there are only male Russians in Goa ?
Will you still like to party ? tell me.

 

[Poeticus]

What if there are only male Russians in Goa ?
Will you still like to party ? tell me.

You don't even know when you are doing it, do you?

 

[chinu]

You don't even know when you are doing it, do you?

What do you mean by doing it ?

 

[Vinayaka]

Back to the topic ... In order to grow long beans, bananas, okra, you need a particular climate. (hot, long growing season) Same too for swiss chard, spinach, (cooler, less time)

So religions are like that ... different frameworks, different goals, different mindset ... clearly Hinduism has moksha as a well defined goal, and has attempted to define it in some way. That's one of the reasons I will stay Hindu ... a need for a well-defined goal. Other religions rarely offer that sort of clarity.

Still there are other experiences that people may have mistaken for nirvana etc. As samsara for an individual rolls on, many such experiences happen ... many of us here can relate some of our first mystical experiences, never easily, but we can try.

Who is to say that what someone attempts to describe is or is not moksha.

Long ago, some sage somewhere in some time attained an experience that lead to moksha. Did it have a label attached? Most likely not. Only later was it labelled. But in that cave, when he (or she) saw intense light within, and followed it to it's source, to eventually dissolve consciousness into that source, and then come back out into ordinary consciousness, only to go back in again and again and again.

That cave is open to all. Call it what you want to.

 

[Kalidas]

Back to the topic ... In order to grow long beans, bananas, okra, you need a particular climate. (hot, long growing season) Same too for swiss chard, spinach, (cooler, less time)

So religions are like that ... different frameworks, different goals, different mindset ... clearly Hinduism has moksha as a well defined goal, and has attempted to define it in some way. That's one of the reasons I will stay Hindu ... a need for a well-defined goal. Other religions rarely offer that sort of clarity.

Still there are other experiences that people may have mistaken for nirvana etc. As samsara for an individual rolls on, many such experiences happen ... many of us here can relate some of our first mystical experiences, never easily, but we can try.

Who is to say that what someone attempts to describe is or is not moksha.

Long ago, some sage somewhere in some time attained an experience that lead to moksha. Did it have a label attached? Most likely not. Only later was it labelled. But in that cave, when he (or she) saw intense light within, and followed it to it's source, to eventually dissolve consciousness into that source, and then come back out into ordinary consciousness, only to go back in again and again and again.

That cave is open to all. Call it what you want to.

I like that the cave is open to all. I agree anyone is free and able to attain moksha, but without the proper mindset it will not happen, and sadly not all religions teach you to follow this goal.

As I stated early SURE a Christian can reach moksha in this life time, just it is not practical.

 

[Vinayaka]

Definitely in any traditional Hindu school, brahmacarya is a pre-requisite to moksha. Other faiths or liberal schools might see this otherwise, but that is the traditional stance.

 

[Kalidas]

Definitely in any traditional Hindu school, brahmacarya is a pre-requisite to moksha. Other faiths or liberal schools might see this otherwise, but that is the traditional stance.

well dang I guess I'm out. I want kids one day!

Plus I'm married now

 

[Vinayaka]

well dang I guess I'm out. I want kids one day!

Plus I'm married now

But your soul isn't. You're not this body, this personality, remember? Next lifetime. This one will be a great preparation, having stepped on to the path of dharma.

 

[Kalidas]

But your soul isn't. You're not this body, this personality, remember? Next lifetime. This one will be a great preparation, having stepped on to the path of dharma.

Good point. Hmmmm work on progression now, finish the goal soon. Thanks! lol

 

[Metempsychosis]

well dang I guess I'm out. I want kids one day!

Plus I'm married now

Faithfulness can be described as a kind of Brahmacharya within marriage.Remember Brahmacharya is not just celibacy or lack of sex but constant use of that energy(mental/physical) to rejuvenate one'e being (i.e to stay in Brahman).For monastic traditions which aim at going to Moksha through set of occult worlds absolute celibacy(for a extended period-say a couple of decades) is incredibly important-because of latent occult forces which might pull an aspirant down if he is giving way to passions.
Hindu Rishis were married,and practiced asceticism only later in life.Even tough such a tradition does not exist now you can always prepare yourself for it.My suggestion is don't go with a notion that there is another life to perfect yourself,that will lead to procrastination.Now you get the idea of abrahamic religions having a linear conception of time-Eternal Hell-because it can be used to tame the followers in getting the work done right away. Balance your life right now,and choose celibacy later on when you get a chance.Between the kind of mess some of the Hindu monastics get into these days shows that they are not at all ready for it.

There are some traditions(ISKCON) that enjoin celibacy within marriage,again such a custom is not advisable unless both the husband and wife choose it voluntarily.

 

[Kalidas]

Faithfulness can be described as a kind of Brahmacharya within marriage.Remember Brahmacharya is not just celibacy or lack of sex but constant use of that energy(mental/physical) to rejuvenate one'e being (i.e to stay in Brahman).For monastic traditions which aim at going to Moksha through set of occult worlds absolute celibacy(for a extended period-say a couple of decades) is incredibly important-because of latent occult forces which might pull an aspirant down if he is giving way to passions.
Hindu Rishis were married,and practiced asceticism only later in life.Even tough such a tradition does not exist now you can always prepare yourself for it.My suggestion is don't go with a notion that there is another life to perfect yourself,that will lead to procrastination.Now you get the idea of abrahamic religions having a linear conception of time-Eternal Hell-because it can be used to tame the followers in getting the work done right away. Balance your life right now,and choose celibacy later on when you get a chance.Between the kind of mess some of the Hindu monastics get into these days shows that they are not all ready for it.

In the Devi bhagavatam there is a wonderful story about this. Vyasa had a son named Suka. when vyasa asked him to get married Suka said no, that sexual desire and having a wife would tie him to pleasures and you could never reach Moksha. Vyasa pleaded him to go see Janaka king of Milthia. He saw that Janaka was a great sage, was full of spiritual knowledge and had a marvelous understanding of Brahman. Yet he had a kingdom, he was RICH beyond belief, he was a king after all.

Janaka explained that for one to reach moksha they first must experience the four stages of life, the student, the householder, the ascetic (hermit) and then the renunciate. King Janaka said that if Suka's desires were not quelled now at a younger age they would manifest in later age and stop him from reaching Moksha.

the story ends with Suka agreeing getting married having a wonderful life, and towards the end of his life he makes his way up to mount Kailasa and upon great meditation and full renunciation of his life on Earth he attained Moksha and was never to be heard of again.

So maybe perfect celibacy is not necessary for someone through out their life but something that comes later when our body is ready. when the body no longer desires neither does the mind, and when the mind is unattached we can begin removing the clouds of ignorance. Something like that?


I agree don't set aside spiritual growth because it can "happen later" as I said progression now finish the goal when I am ready. Yet to reach that goal we must run towards it in all our lives. It may not happen for me in this life time or even the next but I need to consciously try to reach for it in all lifetimes. I hope to never procrastinate like that, I think dharma is far superior to dogma in this aspect. Instead of having some book or person to tell us what is right and wrong we have the duty of seeking the truth of what is right and wrong.

 

[Poeticus]

well dang I guess I'm out. I want kids one day!

Plus I'm married now

(R.V.1.89.9) ...Within the space of the Vishve-Deva-s, our sons become fathers...the Vishve-Deva-s do not break in the midst of our course of fleeting life.

Meaning: May sons be born and continue to be born; do not cut short future generations; let future generations always continue to be born = continuation of family generations.

If everyone went after Brahmachari seeking after Moksha, there would be no sons and no fathers whom the sons would venerate. There would not have been R.V.10.15 = The Hymn to the Fathers.

(R.V.10.15.3) I have gained son and progeny from Vishnu.

Meaning: The Seer/Rishi* of that verse has acquired progeny by the blessings of Surya Narayana (Lord Shri Vishnu).

*Pro-Brahmacharis need to understand that a Rishi/Bard mentioned in a Shruti scripture had children blessed by Lord Shri Vishnu. What does that mean? That means that the Rishi was extremely important to be included in a Shruti scripture where as only a couple Brahmacharis are included in Shruti scripture, if at all any. What does that tell you? Oh, by the way, to be included as a Rishi in a Shruti scripture means the person in question (the one who had a kid) acquired moksha. All the Rishis and Rishikas acquired moksha. And, a majority of them had sons/daughters/children. AKA: family books - Mandalas 2-7. In fact, if I remember correctly, it is through the grace and blessings of Soma that a person acquires "immortality" - the continuation of generations is that "immortality", metaphorically. The name lives on forever. The fathers and forefathers acquire the higher realm of immortality: becoming one with the consciousness of the Supreme-s / Deva-s, as per Shruti Vedas.

 

[Vinayaka]

Honestly, I don't see how a belief in reincarnation will lead to procrastination. For me, it leads to patience, which is much different. Be patient with oneself. Be patient with others. Accept who you are, your stage in evolution.

Yes, do what you can do, and do it well. Live a dharma. Raise progeny that are fine planetary citizens. Don't worry too much about the future, this life or the next. When Vanaprastha comes, enter it religiously. Trust in God and that relationship to hold you to the right path.

Viewing life as if this is the last one is Abrahamic. It can surely lead to disappointment if expectations of inner worlds are too high. If realisations are to come, so be it. If not, so be it.

 

[Metempsychosis]

So maybe perfect celibacy is not necessary for someone through out their life but something that comes later when our body is ready. when the body no longer desires neither does the mind, and when the mind is unattached we can begin removing the clouds of ignorance. Something like that?

The story is quite interesting.Perfect Celibacy cannot come naturally to any one of us(unless the person is asexual or an advanced yogin before),it is something that you have to train yourself.Because,yogic philosophy says that matter is a product of mind and not mind a product of matter.So,mind can work independent of external matter, but can also act as its master; it can not only reject and control external stimuli, but can defy such apparently universal material laws as that of gravitation and ignore, put aside and make nought of what are called laws of nature and are really only the laws of material nature.This becomes more apparent when soul or the psychical being evolves.

 

[Poeticus]

Honestly, I don't see how a belief in reincarnation will lead to procrastination.

I don't see how a belief in reincarnation can lead to procrastination either. How is that even possible?

Don't worry too much about the future, this life or the next.

That's exactly what the Shruti Vedas say.

Viewing life as if this is the last one is Abrahamic.

Can you expand a little bit more on this? Because I would like to know more.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Viewing life as if this is the last one is Abrahamic. It can surely lead to disappointment if expectations of inner worlds are too high. If realisations are to come, so be it. If not, so be it.

Further,such a belief in eternal hell may be seen as highly unethical and simply as inventions to make people obey, to keep them under control.

The thing with theory of Karma is that people might start to think they will always have another chance.Instead of thinking what I have to do right now,they start think in terms of lifetimes -where will born in the next life,what bad I have done in the past,priest told this is my last lifeD) etc.I am sure intelligent members on RF will fall not prey to such a thought.