Moksha and who is "worthy" of it

[Metempsychosis]

This parallels my thoughts and the teaching of the lineage I adhere to. It is refreshing to hear someone speak of jnana in this way, rather than book study.

I am a pseudo-shaiva.That's why.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am a pseudo-shaiva.That's why.

What's that, or dare I ask?

 

[Metempsychosis]

What's that, or dare I ask?

Advaita.IMHO,Adi Sankara preached Shaivite philosophy (similar to Shaiva Siddhanta and Kashmir Shaivism) through Vedanta

 

[Vinayaka]

Advaita.IMHO,Adi Sankara preached Shaivite philosophy (similar to Shaiva Siddhanta and Kashmir Shaivism) through Vedanta

I've never really studied Sankara, but from what I have read or been told, it was more an updated version of Smartism, not Saivism, at least in any 'pure' sense. Most certainly his teachings are quite predominant.

I have a very difficult time explaining to his followers from South India that I don't follow him. In fact, even in the priesthood, it's difficult to distinguish as there is a blur. I don't think the Deek****ars of Chidambaram follow that tradition. Nor do the aadheenam heads, obviously.

The way you put it, the idea of a Smarta priest is practically an oxymoron.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Advaita.IMHO,Adi Sankara preached Shaivite philosophy (similar to Shaiva Siddhanta and Kashmir Shaivism) through Vedanta

Yeah, uh...regarding the latter, perhaps you should read the verses in the Tantrālokaḥ which I posted here and here. I don't want to do any sampradāya-bashing, but seriously, why do people even follow Trika?

 

[Metempsychosis]

I've never really studied Sankara, but from what I have read or been told, it was more an updated version of Smartism, not Saivism, at least in any 'pure' sense. Most certainly his teachings are quite predominant.

I have a very difficult time explaining to his followers from South India that I don't follow him. In fact, even in the priesthood, it's difficult to distinguish as there is a blur. I don't think the Deek****ars of Chidambaram follow that tradition. Nor do the aadheenam heads, obviously.

The way you put it, the idea of a Smarta priest is practically an oxymoron.

It certainly differs from pure shaivism,my point is the ridge(core philosophical differences) between certain (or many?) schools of shaivism(or tantra) and advaita vedanta is far far smaller than the ridge between advaita vedanta and vaishnavism.Swami Sivananda(head dls) is from Deek****ar family lineage.

For example,saying Shivahom is okay in Shaivite traditions so is Aham Bramhasmi in advaita but you cannot say aham vishnu (it is blasphemy for vaishnavites)

 

[Poeticus]

Advaita.IMHO,Adi Sankara preached Shaivite philosophy

How can that be? Adi Shankara clearly states in his Bhashya-s that Vishnu is BrahmAn.

ps - I am NOT a Vaishnava. Just wanted to get that out there.

 

[Vinayaka]

Swami Sivananda(head dls) is from Deek****ar family lineage.

Surely not the famous Sivananda .... he's definitely a Smarta.

 

[Metempsychosis]

How can that be? Adi Shankara clearly states in his Bhashya-s that Vishnu is BrahmAn.

ps - I am NOT a Vaishnava. Just wanted to get that out there.

I am just talking about broad philosophical leanings.I see a tinge of Shaivism in all of advaita-Soul and Supersoul one and the end goal being reduced a non-dual principle and the spirit of renunication associated with Advaitins is similar to Shiva followers.Sri Ramana Maharishi being at the Arunchala(an abode of Shiva) etc.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Surely not the famous Sivananda .... he's definitely a Smarta.

I am referring only to family lineage not the monastic order(Saraswati Order).
Swami Sivananda

Siva-advaita:
Appayya Dik****ar

 

[Metempsychosis]

Yeah, uh...regarding the latter, perhaps you should read the verses in the Tantrālokaḥ which I posted here and here. I don't want to do any sampradāya-bashing, but seriously, why do people even follow Trika?

I haven't read the tantraloka,I don't recommend left hand path to anyone.
Have you checked Lakshman Joo?Looks very similar to Advaita.

"Trika philosophy is situated in the heart of that supreme energy of God consciousness. It teaches you to realize that this whole objective world, which is already in front of you, is not separate from God consciousness. You do not have to realize God situated in some seventh heaven. God and the individual are one, to realize this is the essence of Kashmir Shaivism." ~Swami Lakshmanjoo

Teachings of Swami Lakshmanjoo: About Swami Lakshmanjoo

 

[Vinayaka]

I am referring only to family lineage not the monastic order(Saraswati Order).
Swami Sivananda

Siva-advaita:
Appayya Dik****ar

I'm sorry. I still do not understand. Because Sivananda scribed a story about Appaya Dik****ar, he is a family member? What am I missing?

And all this talk of people being avatars of Siva? Again, what am I missing? It's clearly a borrowed concept from Vaishnavism.

 

[Metempsychosis]

I'm sorry. I still do not understand. Because Sivananda scribed a story about Appaya Dik****ar, he is a family member? What am I missing?

And all this talk of people being avatars of Siva? Again, what am I missing? It's clearly a borrowed concept from Vaishnavism.

Appaya Dik****ar was a family ancestor of Sivananda,both of them followed Advaita Vedanta,but the Appaya Advaita is focused on Shiva.There is definitely a Kevala Advaita track within Shavism,but I am not sure if Appaya was a member of that track.These are my two cents.

 

[Vinayaka]

Appaya Dik****ar was a family ancestor of Sivananda,he followed pure Advaita track under Shaivism whereas his younger counterpart(Swami Sivananda) followed Advaita of Sankara.There may be differences but these are my two cents.

I guess I didn't read the article closely enough to read where it said he was paying homage to an ancestor. Sorry.

According to this .. http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2002-July/003170.html there are two different dik****ar groups, hence the confusion.

 

[Metempsychosis]

I guess I didn't read the article closely enough to read where it said he was paying homage to an ancestor. Sorry.

According to this .. Shaivas and Smartas there are two different dik****ar groups, hence the confusion.

I get it now!

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

My method would be choose an integral approach which combines all the methods Karma/Bhakti along with some sort of intellectual Jnana approach and use that until one ripens for towards Saguna/Sibeeja Samadhi and when one come to this state,then and then only the real question of dvaita/advaita occurs because until then there is individuality.

Just :clap
Thank you this is very clear and nice put

Yeah, uh...regarding the latter, perhaps you should read the verses in the Tantrālokaḥ which I posted here and here.

Yes, we understood, you don't like Tantra. Good for you. Then ?

I don't want to do any sampradāya-bashing.

But I already feel that you are doing, or at least trying. Please Ji, the tread is not meant for that, so if you want to show how this sampradaya is illogic or how Tantra is stupid, then go "showing" that in another tread, please. I study Tantra too, even if I am not left path oriented. But my man follows it, and I don't see how Moksha can be denied to either of us because he follows a side of the path and me the balance.

In my opinion, Moksha is not "granted". It can be granted, but it is not. You have to work and climb your way with your intellect, your actions, your devotion, you have to strive for it so hard that it makes you change and willing to discover things out of your comfort zone, and to think, and adapt your mind to them if necessary. It is a great work. Not "you are Hindu therefore you have Moksha", like I heard some people say. This is not heaven granted, for me, it is a full time body, mind and soul work.
Only after countless lifetimes and efforts in understanding then samâdi can be granted, and when the soul is far enough beyond the non return point then someone is ready to receive the Grace of Shiv. It showers on us every second, we litterally swim in it, what is difficult is to realize it.




Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I haven't read the tantraloka,I don't recommend left hand path to anyone.
Have you checked Lakshman Joo?Looks very similar to Advaita.

Teachings of Swami Lakshmanjoo: About Swami Lakshmanjoo

Praṇām,
You misunderstood me. I never said that Trika followers were against advaita, because that would be self contradictory (as they were advaitin-s, although they didn't necessarily follow the kevalādvaita of Ādiśaṅkara). However, their (traditional) practices go directly against those of Ādiśaṅkara. In fact, Ādiśaṅkara stated that the vāmācārī-s (which he met in Kerala) should no longer refer to themselves as Śākta-followers (see here), and after looking at their practices was inspired to write the prapañcasāra-tantra in order to spread his philosophy to those vāmācāra practitioners whom he felt were "fallen." Both Abhinavagupta and his Guru, Śambhunātha Paṇḍita, on the other hand, made vāmācāra mandatory and viewed negligence therein as hindering one's chance at attaining Bhairavatā (i.e. Bhairava-tattva), hence why he made statements comparing his iṣṭa-devatā (Kālabhairava) to wine [i.e. "madyaṃ mahābhairavam"].

I'm not making this stuff up either; MahaHrada from HDF attests to this in one of his posts:

Yes, we understood, you don't like Tantra. Good for you. Then ?

Praṇām,
Who said I was against tantra in general? Are you sure you're not just strawmanning me (as I said before, my best friend is a follower of the Śrīvidyā tāntrika tradition)? I am, however, against people joining Trika-Kaula-mārga/"Kaśmīr-śaivism" as I don't view having sex with prostitutes, offering meat and alcohol to devyaḥ, or comparing your iṣṭa-devatā to wine as truly dhārmika pathways. Call me sectarian if you want, but if one starts accepting such beliefs as part of Vaidika-dharma, then what prevents one from accepting even adhārmika religions (like Islam, for example) into Vaidika-dharma?

Oṃ Namo Nārāyaṇāya!

 

[Metempsychosis]

Praṇām,
You misunderstood me. I never said that Trika followers were against advaita, because that would be self contradictory (as they were advaitin-s, although they didn't necessarily follow the kevalādvaita of Ādiśaṅkara). However, their (traditional) practices go directly against those of Ādiśaṅkara. In fact, Ādiśaṅkara stated that the vāmācārī-s (which he met in Kerala) should no longer refer to themselves as Śākta-followers (see here), and after looking at their practices was inspired to write the prapañcasāra-tantra in order to spread his philosophy to those vāmācāra practitioners whom he felt were "fallen." Both Abhinavagupta and his Guru, Śambhunātha Paṇḍita, on the other hand, made vāmācāra mandatory and viewed negligence therein as hindering one's chance at attaining Bhairavatā (i.e. Bhairava-tattva), hence why he made statements comparing his iṣṭa-devatā (Kālabhairava) to wine [i.e. "madyaṃ mahābhairavam"].

I'm not making this stuff up either; MahaHrada from HDF attests to this in one of his posts:

My suggestion would be stop looking things from moral perspective ,the aim of dharma is to raise above gunas and not be attached to gunas (not even the Sattvic ones).Being attached to virtues itself is not conducive to liberation.I am not saying to cease controlling your desires,but you should know there is a backdoor for everything. Vamachara is that kind of a backdoor.Not that I support such a method.I don not because people will use such a method to satisfy their own gross and vital desires.

The kind of self-control which Vamachara method aspires is much more difficult that the method through Celibacy and sense-control.For example,trying to practice breath control while having a orgasm.Very very difficult for any person to do.Total celibacy is easier than this!

From Thriumantiram-Pariyanga Yoga
825: Pleasures of Sex Union Will Abide
If Breath Control is Properly Practiced
Anointing her body with unguents diverse
Bedecking her tresses with flowers fragrant
Do you enjoy the damsel in passion's union;
If you but know how to shoot
Prana breath through the Spinal Cavity
Your enjoyment never ceases.
https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/tirumantiram

Abhinavagupta or Padmasambhava may have done this,but for most human beings this will lead to a cesspit of insatiable lust.

In this light,I would recommend a person who is attached to sex should slowly tapper it off and withdraw himself from it.Less sofor meat/alcohol because it is much easier to give up.Better idea would be continue any spiritual practice you doing and then slowly gain enough the self-control required to give the habit.I would not be upbeat about indulging in any of these not-so-dharmic pleasures.
I am putting up some quotes about this Vamachara technique and meat eating in general:

Ramakrishna Paramahansa said

NARENDRA: "Isn't it true that the Tantra prescribes spiritual discipline in the company of
woman?"
MASTER: "That is not desirable. It is a very difficult path and often causes the aspirant's downfall.
Rough Notebook-Open Forum
Blessed is the man who retains his love for the Lotus Feet of God even though he eats pork.

- from "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna"

Swami Chidananda says:

Tantra is an approach to God through all types of sense enjoyment. Everything is offered to God and so everything becomes sanctified; nothing is profane. One enjoys sense satisfaction and sees it also as part of God’s bliss. There is a view, and it has something to it, that while in all human experiences duality persists—there is an “I am enjoying this object” feeling—that in the ultimate sexual experience between a truly loving male, intensely in love with the female and fully reciprocated by the female, there is no consciousness of one’s separate individuality. There is a total fusion of the separatist consciousness in each one, and there is only the awareness of bliss experience. There is no experiencer. They say this is a possibility when it is done to its perfection. The two cease to be and there is only one, non-dual experience, Experience Absolute, Brahmic-consciousness. So they say that the human body is an instrument that, if properly made use of, can bring about a rising above body consciousness.

For one in a million it may click.

The pursuit of pleasure is part of the Western view of life—not the denial of pleasure. And one teacher in ten may be an authentic teacher genuinely offering something suited to the Western temperament. But nine of them are very shrewd people. They know there is a market for this, and they are wise to it. The approach is: You can have your cake and eat it too.

Mind you, this was an authentic path that did once upon a time exist in India, especially in the Eastern part. Even now it exists. But it became grossly perverted. People became enmeshed in it. They said they were practising tantra but it was only wining, dining, and sex pleasure. It took them nowhere, but I suppose it took them where they wanted to go. So it was dubbed by enlightened people of that time as the “perverted path.” Two paths then came into existence: the authentic path which was called the “right-hand path,” and the perverted path which was only after enjoyment. That was called the “left-hand path.
The Role of Celibacy in the Spiritual Life

Sri Aurobindo:

Disciple: In our yoga we have to discontinue the lower movement of nature as being an obstacle to Sadhana, but the Tantrics – specially the Vira Sadhakas – turn these obstacles to account and, taking help from these, they build up spiritual life. Sri Aurobindo:How? Disciple: That is my question. Sri Aurobindo: I have no objection to taking fish and even you can take wine, if it suits you, but how can the sexual act be made to help in spiritual life? In itself the sexual act is not bad as the moralists believe. It is a movement of nature which has its purpose and is neither good nor bad. But, from the yogic point of view, the sexual force is the greatest force in the world and if properly used helps to recreate and regenerate the being. But, if it is indulged in the ordinary way, it is a great obstacle for two reasons. First, the sexual act involves a great loss of vital force, it is a movement towards death, though this is compensated by creation of new life. That it is a movement towards death is proved by the exhaustion felt after it; many people feel even a disgust.
Celibacy(Brahmacharya): Quotes by Sri Aurobindo

I do not deny that so long as one allows a sort of separation between inner experience and outer consciousness, the latter being left as an inferior activity controlled but not transformed, it is quite possible to have spiritual experiences and make progress without any entire cessation of the sex-activity. The mind separates itself from the outer vital (life-parts) and the physical consciousness and lives its own inner life. But only a few can really do this with any completeness and the moment one's experiences extend to the life-plane and the physical, sex can no ]'Longer be treated in this way. It can become at any moment a disturbing, upsetting and deforming force. I have observed that to an equal extent with ego (pride, vanity, ambition) and rajasic greeds and desires it is one of the main causes of the spiritual casualties that have taken place in sadhana.
It has to be said that the total elimination of the sex-impulse is one of the most difficult things in sadhana and one must be prepared for it to take time. But its total disappearance has been achieved and a practical liberation crossed only by occasional dream-movements from the subconscient is fairly common.-Letters on Yoga

Sri Ramana Maharishi on meat eating:

Question: Could one receive spiritual illumination while eating flesh foods?
Ramana Maharshi: Yes, but abandon them gradually and accustom yourself to sattvic foods. However, once you have attained illumination it will make less difference what you eat, as, on a great fire, it is immaterial what fuel is added.
The rationale behind vegetarianism | Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo & The Mother

Good luck in your path!

 

[ratikala]

who is worthy of moksa ? ......

one who has nothing to prove , ....no need to prove it , ....and no ego to prove it with

 

[Poeticus]

who is worthy of moksa ? ......

one who has nothing to prove , ....no need to prove it , ....and no ego to prove it with

Explain. Because, I don't want moksha. I want to party with Russian people in Goa.