Mom unapologetically raising kid without religion

[LuisDantas]

WHY is it the right thing to do?

Because of the consequences.

On a larger scope, I do not find deontology a good basis for ethics. Too limited, too prone to abuse.

Consequentialism is more challenging (by design) but superior by any perspective.

 

[Darkforbid]

Because of the consequences.

On a larger scope, I do not find deontology a good basis for ethics. Too limited, too prone to abuse.

Consequentialism is more challenging (by design) but superior by any perspective.

So how does secular morality fear of consequences differ from fear of judgment

 

[LuisDantas]

So how does secular morality fear of consequences differ from fear of judgment

Not fear. Awareness and responsibility.

Fear is inferior to those in every single way, because it hurts, paralyzes and encourages avoidance.

Not a good basis for the development of ethical responsibility. For that matter, not a good basis for the development of anything else constructive, either.

That there are people who actually propose "fear of judgement" as a make-do for ethics shows how bankrupt certain doctrines are.

 

[Darkforbid]

Not fear. Awareness and responsibility.

Fear is inferior those in every single way, because it hurts, paralyzes and encourages avoidance.

Not a good basis for the development of ethical responsibility. For that matter, not a good basis for the development of anything else constructive, either.

That there are people who actually propose "fear of judgement" as a make-do for ethics shows how bankrupt certain doctrines are.

OK, I'll rephrase it:

So how does secular moralistic awareness and responsibility of consequences differ from religious awareness and responsibility of consequences?

 

[epronovost]

OK, I'll rephrase it:

So how does secular moralistic awareness and responsibility of consequences differ from religious awareness and responsibility of consequences?

One of the way you can see the difference (there are others of course) is in which virtue secular moralistic awareness and responsibility of consequences build, cultivate and relies upon versus the one religious awareness and responsibility of consequences.

In my opinion, a secular morality that bases itself on awareness and responsability will develop the virtue of compassion and empathy for the person that is sought to be helped or spared is another human and for the benefits of humans in general.

A fervantly and exclusively relgious moralistic awereness and responsability of the consequences will develop the virtue of obediance toward a deity (and I don't think obediance is much of a virtue) for the person that is sought to please and help is the deity itself and for the benefit of a single person.

Morality objective being living and flourishing together, a system that cultivates and rely upon virtues that allow more cooperation and a wider vision and understanding of ones action in the grand scheme of things is more likely to achieve this objective.

At least, that's one way to see it.

 

[PruePhillip]

I believe only Jesus, and Michael have the power to understand the gospels and the old testemant, to the rest of us it's just a giant book of out dated morals.

Are these biblical morals "outdated" ?

love (even your enemies)
forgiveness
compassion
grace
mercy
love
turning the other cheek
meekness
gravity
sincerity
fidelity
respect for authority
honesty

Are these biblical sins now okay ?

lust
gluttony
adultery
contempt of authority
disobedience to parents
drunkenness
sodomy
divorce
theft

And are these a few Modern Morals the bible knew little about ?

drug addiction
child porn
large scale porn industry
large scale prostitution industry
mainstream gambling
violence as entertainment

 

[Darkforbid]

One of the way you can see the difference (there are others of course) is in which virtue secular moralistic awareness and responsibility of consequences build, cultivate and relies upon versus the one religious awareness and responsibility of consequences.

In my opinion, a secular morality that bases itself on awareness and responsability will develop the virtue of compassion and empathy for the person that is sought to be helped or spared is another human and for the benefits of humans in general.

A fervantly and exclusively relgious moralistic awereness and responsability of the consequences will develop the virtue of obediance toward a deity (and I don't think obediance is much of a virtue) for the person that is sought to please and help is the deity itself and for the benefit of a single person.

Morality objective being living and flourishing together, a system that cultivates and rely upon virtues that allow more cooperation and a wider vision and understanding of ones action in the grand scheme of things is more likely to achieve this objective.

At least, that's one way to see it.

Not the way I see it though! All I see is since 1851 secularism hasn't even come up with one original rule or ethic

Unless obviously 'lets do exactly the same not using the word God' is somehow virtuous in your eyes

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Which reminds me: .... when does the Watchtower Society say that clean-up is set to occur?

Tomorrow at 5pm

 

[Darkforbid]

Are these biblical morals "outdated" ?

love (even your enemies)
forgiveness
compassion
grace
mercy
love
turning the other cheek
meekness
gravity
sincerity
fidelity
respect for authority
honesty

Are these biblical sins now okay ?

lust
gluttony
adultery
contempt of authority
disobedience to parents
drunkenness
sodomy
divorce
theft

And are these a few Modern Morals the bible knew little about ?

drug addiction
child porn
large scale porn industry
large scale prostitution industry
mainstream gambling
violence as entertainment

I though gravity was a force not a morel

 

[epronovost]

And are these a few Modern Morals the bible knew little about ?

drug addiction
child porn
large scale porn industry
large scale prostitution industry
mainstream gambling
violence as entertainment

I don't want to be mean but a lot of those things were very common place in Ancient Palestine. While child porn wasn't a thing due to the fact that pornography is we would define it wasn't really a thing, sexual intercourse between adults and people less then 18 years old was a common occurence either in marriage or with concubines (provided you could afford them). There was a large scale form of prostitution industry and even sex slavery to a degree that today would be deemed inhuman. Violent sports and games were also very popular. Wresting and bare knuckle fighting (or a mix of both) were both popular. As for object depicting sex or sexual organs, archeologist found a surprisingly large amount of them in pretty much all ancient civilisation. Hell, the eldest dildo ever found is something like 28 000 years old.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Actually, @Terry Sampson , it’s been almost 100 years since any WatchTower prediction of the end.

As to what might happen in ‘75...nothing definitive was ever published. Members were advised to take a “wait and see” attitude.

Take care.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Another insightful article from the perspective of the non-believer.



I Am Unapologetically Raising My Daughter Without Religion

God is not a big Santa in the sky, I don't believe in the Santa in the sky either... that's an idol.

 

[epronovost]

Not the way I see it though! All I see is since 1851 secularism hasn't even come up with one original rule or ethic

Unless obviously 'lets do exactly the same not using the word God' is somehow virtuous in your eyes

Secular humanism is older then 1851 and secular morality in general is older then Christianity. We could say Jesus's teachings is practically a carbon copy of stoicism which is 300 years older and not religious. The intellectual framework under which we are both discussing morality itself was developped mostly by Aristotle, Plato, Zeno and Epicurus all of which pre-date Christianity and all of which were secular in nature.

I could make the argument of what exactly is original about any religious teaching that isn't the same thing then secular morality but adding "because God wants it" at the end. (of course both form of the sentence are reductive)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, @Terry Sampson , it’s been almost 100 years since any WatchTower prediction of the end.

As to what might happen in ‘75...nothing definitive was ever published. Members were advised to take a “wait and see” attitude.

Take care.

What about this:

"According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation.

How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a Sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! ... It would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the "Lord of the Sabbath", to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man's existence.[39]"

Page 29:

http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/lifeeverlasting/1966_Life_Everlasting.pdf

 

[PruePhillip]

I though gravity was a force not a morel

Gravity, as in "gravitas"
Having a gravity to your character.

1 Physics
Ythe force that attracts a body towards the centre of the earth, or towards any other physical body having mass.
attraction
attracting force
downward force
pull
weight
heaviness

2.character
extreme importance; seriousness.
"crimes of the utmost gravity"

 

[PruePhillip]

I don't want to be mean but a lot of those things were very common place in Ancient Palestine. While child porn wasn't a thing due to the fact that pornography is we would define it wasn't really a thing, sexual intercourse between adults and people less then 18 years old was a common occurence either in marriage or with concubines (provided you could afford them). There was a large scale form of prostitution industry and even sex slavery to a degree that today would be deemed inhuman. Violent sports and games were also very popular. Wresting and bare knuckle fighting (or a mix of both) were both popular. As for object depicting sex or sexual organs, archeologist found a surprisingly large amount of them in pretty much all ancient civilisation. Hell, the eldest dildo ever found is something like 28 000 years old.

I am talking here about the bible and its characters, culture and nation.
Prostitution for instance attracted the death penalty.
Was there still prostitution? Sure, but as you image in small town Israel,
you could die if you were caught. That's the difference between Jewish
prostitution ca 1000 BC and Western prostitution 2019.

Ditto for the rest.

 

[PruePhillip]

What about this:

"According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975. So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation.

How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a Sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! ... It would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the "Lord of the Sabbath", to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man's existence.[39]"

Page 29:

http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/lifeeverlasting/1966_Life_Everlasting.pdf

Most JW's I know don't know much about 1975.
Those who do claim it was "some brothers" to disassociate from the doctrine.
One astonished me by saying "That's just man's ideas" so of course, I reminded
them, "It was in the Watch Tower magazine."

 

[Darkforbid]

Secular humanism is older then 1851 and secular morality in general is older then Christianity. We could say Jesus's teachings is practically a carbon copy of stoicism which is 300 years older and not religious. The intellectual framework under which we are both discussing morality itself was developped mostly by Aristotle, Plato, Zeno and Epicurus all of which pre-date Christianity and all of which were secular in nature.

I could make the argument of what exactly is original about any religious teaching that isn't the same thing then secular morality but adding "because God wants it" at the end. (of course both form of the sentence are reductive)

Absolute rubbish; Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind, and the futility and temporary nature of worldly possessions and attachments.

 

[epronovost]

I am talking here about the bible and its characters, culture and nation.
Prostitution for instance attracted the death penalty.
Was there still prostitution? Sure, but as you image in small town Israel,
you could die if you were caught. That's the difference between Jewish
prostitution ca 1000 BC and Western prostitution 2019.

Ditto for the rest.

Well sex slavery was legal and in my opinion a sex slave is pretty much just like a prostitute but worse since a prostitute can actually quit this occupation, works on her own accord and can win a wage that she is free to spend as she wishes. They also had concubines, child brides, the right to have sex with female servants, etc. Considering that a woman's consent wasn't necessary for marriage and that she had very little to no capacity to work to make an independant living in the Ancient Hebrew society, we can even make the argument that those women were not much better placed than prostitute, forced to service a man they might not love in exchange of protection, shelter and goods. In a society where there is sex slavery, legalised polygamy, forced marriage and where women are at best treated as children and at worst possession, there is little need for prostitution.

PS: depiction of sexual organs (mostly vagina and penises) were often kept as lucky charms in the region. They were supposed to enhance fertility or potency.

 

[epronovost]

Absolute rubbish; Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind, and the futility and temporary nature of worldly possessions and attachments.

That's my point. Stoicism is much older then Christianity and stoic philosophy penetrated the area at the same time then the Greeks and later Romans two centuries before the birth of Christ let alone the birth of Christianity. Stoicism isn't a religious doctrine. It's a secular philosophy. Zeno himself was an atheists.