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Mom unapologetically raising kid without religion

epronovost

Well-Known Member
...except for in China, because their secular society protects them from such problems. Right?

Cults of personnalities are a form of religion and of course, we should also mention that in secular humanism, humanism is just as important if not even more than the secular part of it. I would expect someone to be able to understand those important differences. Communist China (or the old USSR for that matter) weren't secular humanist societies and culture.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
'suggest that raising your children with secular morality is highly beneficial, saying that these children are “less vengeful, less nationalistic, less militaristic, less authoritarian, and more tolerant.'

So a non-religious upbringing makes you more sheep like

What????
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
Then the irreligious can get on with just as dogmatically infighting with each other over misappropriations of 'logic' and 'science' re: whatever their preconceived notion already holds.

Differences persist every minute even if the percentage of compatibility between me and the partner is 99%
But the conditions of temporality force us to concede to live in common interests
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
The crux of the issue isn't really about parents teaching their values and beliefs to their children. This is large part of parenting in the first place and isn't prima facie a bad thing. What's problematic is if those values are harmful and those beliefs false. In that case, the simple act of teaching your children might become a form of child abuse depending on the level of harmfulness of the values and inaccuracy of the beliefs.

There is also the question of ''shelterdness''. That a child is raised religious or not isn't so much of a problem more then the child is isolated and forbidden to interact with non-religious or religious people; that the subject of religion, faith or atheism is proscribed or demonized.

Let's discuss the "harmfulness" and the "falsehood" second. We're going to discuss the idea you seem to have about isolation from non-religious people first, since it seems to be based upon a stereotype of Christians just being people in back-woods with buck teeth or something. Yes, I've met some of those too, a small family I stayed with when I was organic farming for WWOOF in Washington state, who were hardcore conservatives and had a small farm where they had kids memorize the Bible by rote. These are not typical Christians.

You mind if I use my own family as an example?

I grew up in a small town, before atheism was basically telling people that they couldn't wish ppl "Merry Christmas" because some people might be offended. You know, the 80s. It wasn't a religious school just a regular school. If I was at all sheltered from non-Christians it was because my town was mostly religious to start with. Most places in the 1980s aside from big cities were probably this way. However, we moved to another town when i was 11, and I got to meet many different types of people some of them religious, so not. I went to public school after maybe 3 or 4 years of junior high at a religious school. And it was only incidentally religious, they taught us math and science, we read normal books, the only actual difference was a Friday morning worship which was maybe 45 minutes where the pastor kinda repeated the same message every week (he didn't really care too much so our lesson was "God loves you, and wants you to love him." His main church was top priority, they just gave him a few extra bucks). For high school, I went to a regular public high school. For college, I went to a Ferrum, which had a chapel, but for most people they didn't go. I went. I at no point remember being told "don't associate with nonbelievers." I on the other hand, learned that Christianity is in the world but not of the world, meaning I go to work, go to the bank, live a normal life but don't necessarily share the "whoever has most stuff wins" values of the secular world. My best friend left the church because those people were dicks to her (I do not have any expectation of church people being more perfect than other ppl, as this is not the point). My second best friend was in Germany where the church literally has a tax, so most people are not churchgoers.

On the other hand, my sister, a "ChristmasEaster worshiper" and much more leftist than we are, seems to keep us at arms length, and is always sorta like she's afraid someone else will somehow corrupt her children or something, minimizing the number of visits, and keeping herself and her children too busy to go visit the grandparents.

So uhhhhh what's this "sheltering" that you speak of? Because it seems as though I'm perfectly okay with hanging with people who don't necessarily believe like me. Yet, when I look at your own complete ignorance about what Christianity looks like, I'm not sure you've ever really noticed a real Christian.

As to whether Christianity is harmful or not, let me put it this way. The second best friend? Tried to commit suicide, cut all ties with me when I tried to tell her there's more to live for, and she may in fact be dead now. Timothy 4:4 says that faithless people are under a powerful delusion, and I've seen this firsthand. "I'm just a tiny person in a vast universe. I don't matter to anyone, unless I'm powerful or rich or important, so I need to make the most of things. And if I die tomorrow, well that's it. I'll be gone and no one will care." This was basically the mentality that I saw.

This is false. She mattered to me. And there is more to life than just what she could see, which at that point was just a dark tunnel. She ignored many good times, that in a very limited timeframe of knowing her that I saw personally, to only see the darkness. To tell herself that her entire life was bad. And as you can see, it's not only false but harmful. You are telling kids that this life, this sorry excuse for existence is all you have, so you had better live it right, or that's it. You're screwed. You have just told kids that such a thing as Jesus is not even a hope, that nobody (not even a regular human) will ever come to help you, and if life is rough which it inevitably will be, that there is no chance of a better world (not even one you make).

How is that not brainwashing/child abuse?

Some tales about the Crusades and the Witch Hunts, and you've decided Christianity is harmful. But you have no idea how depressing and soul-destroying unbelief can get. I do, because I got to find someone who was destroyed by it. And I had no idea how to save her.

The truth is, atheism for all of its (mostly self-promoted) claims of fact, presents a disturbingly pessimistic view of reality that just isn't real. Just watch any reality show, and you'll see people struggling and fighting with each other. But here's the thing. Those reality shows aren't actually reality. A real job cannot involve just one person being fired, and all the rest go through some screwy contest. Nor does a real date work like Bachelor (you typically choose one there but you don't parade around an entourage like this). And a real life Survivor situation would require teamwork or everyone probably dies. The world atheism teaches about is a "dog-eat-dog" world. But dogs don't actually eat dogs. Here's another thing. These shows are very fake.
 
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wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
'suggest that raising your children with secular morality is highly beneficial, saying that these children are “less vengeful, less nationalistic, less militaristic, less authoritarian, and more tolerant.'

So a non-religious upbringing makes you more sheep like
I think you misread the statement you quoted. Or simply don't comprehend what was written.

Children raised without harmful religious rhetoric turn out to be more well rounded ,compassionate and critically thinking adults.

All of your posts seem like you do not understand much about life without the harmful effects of religious upbringing in some cases.

Not all religious people are brainwashed by their religious upbringing if they had one, and do not pass on all of the foul and hateful thoughts and attitudes that you seem to like to expouse and false ideas you cling to.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Let's discuss the "harmfulness" and the "falsehood" second. We're going to discuss the idea you seem to have about isolation from non-religious people first, since it seems to be based upon a stereotype of Christians just being people in back-woods with buck teeth or something. Yes, I've met some of those too, a small family I stayed with when I was organic farming for WWOOF in Washington state, who were hardcore conservatives and had a small farm where they had kids memorize the Bible by rote. These are not typical Christians.

You mind if I use my own family as an example?

I grew up in a small town, before atheism was basically telling people that they couldn't wish ppl "Merry Christmas" because some people might be offended. You know, the 80s. It wasn't a religious school just a regular school. If I was at all sheltered from non-Christians it was because my town was mostly religious to start with. Most places in the 1980s aside from big cities were probably this way. However, we moved to another town when i was 11, and I got to meet many different types of people some of them religious, so not. I went to public school after maybe 3 or 4 years of junior high at a religious school. And it was only incidentally religious, they taught us math and science, we read normal books, the only actual difference was a Friday morning worship which was maybe 45 minutes where the pastor kinda repeated the same message every week (he didn't really care too much so our lesson was "God loves you, and wants you to love him." His main church was top priority, they just gave him a few extra bucks). For high school, I went to a regular public high school. For college, I went to a Ferrum, which had a chapel, but for most people they didn't go. I went. I at no point remember being told "don't associate with nonbelievers." I on the other hand, learned that Christianity is in the world but not of the world, meaning I go to work, go to the bank, live a normal life but don't necessarily share the "whoever has most stuff wins" values of the secular world. My best friend left the church because those people were dicks to her (I do not have any expectation of church people being more perfect than other ppl, as this is not the point). My second best friend was in Germany where the church literally has a tax, so most people are not churchgoers.

On the other hand, my sister, a "ChristmasEaster worshiper" and much more leftist than we are, seems to keep us at arms length, and is always sorta like she's afraid someone else will somehow corrupt her children or something, minimizing the number of visits, and keeping herself and her children too busy to go visit the grandparents.

So uhhhhh what's this "sheltering" that you speak of? Because it seems as though I'm perfectly okay with hanging with people who don't necessarily believe like me. Yet, when I look at your own complete ignorance about what Christianity looks like, I'm not sure you've ever really noticed a real Christian.

As to whether Christianity is harmful or not, let me put it this way. The second best friend? Tried to commit suicide, cut all ties with me when I tried to tell her there's more to live for, and she may in fact be dead now. Timothy 4:4 says that faithless people are under a powerful delusion, and I've seen this firsthand. "I'm just a tiny person in a vast universe. I don't matter to anyone, unless I'm powerful or rich or important, so I need to make the most of things. And if I die tomorrow, well that's it. I'll be gone and no one will care." This was basically the mentality that I saw.

This is false. She mattered to me. And there is more to life than just what she could see, which at that point was just a dark tunnel. She ignored many good times, that in a very limited timeframe of knowing her that I saw personally, to only see the darkness. To tell herself that her entire life was bad. And as you can see, it's not only false but harmful. You are telling kids that this life, this sorry excuse for existence is all you have, so you had better live it right, or that's it. You're screwed. You have just told kids that such a thing as Jesus is not even a hope, that nobody (not even a regular human) will ever come to help you, and if life is rough which it inevitably will be, that there is no chance of a better world (not even one you make).

How is that not brainwashing/child abuse?

Some tales about the Crusades and the Witch Hunts, and you've decided Christianity is harmful. But you have no idea how depressing and soul-destroying unbelief can get. I do, because I got to find someone who was destroyed by it. And I had no idea how to save her.

The truth is, atheism for all of its (mostly self-promoted) claims of fact, presents a disturbingly pessimistic view of reality that just isn't real. Just watch any reality show, and you'll see people struggling and fighting with each other. But here's the thing. Those reality shows aren't actually reality. A real job cannot involve just one person being fired, and all the rest go through some screwy contest. Nor does a real date work like Bachelor (you typically choose one there but you don't parade around an entourage like this). And a real life Survivor situation would require teamwork or everyone probably dies. The world atheism teaches about is a "dog-eat-dog" world. But dogs don't actually eat dogs. Here's another thing. These shows are very fake.

Just to make it clear, I wasn't actually talking about you specifically or your own personnal beliefs and values on which I know pretty much nothing since I don't know you nor do I know what's your faith (I suspect some form of Christianity). I was making a point on the fact that some religious people teaches values derived from their personnal faith that are harmful. Some, often the same, teach their children very false things that have very bad impact on their children's life. Some, often the same as the two precedent, encourage or even force their children to be isolated from the rest of society. These are very bad things. They aren't strictly confined to religious people either. While much less heard from, it could be possible to see some secular people do the very same thing with similarly bad results. In other words, I was making a point against sectarism and cultism.

For the record, while I'm not Christian or religious and have a strong moral opposition to many doctrines and values of Christianity, I don't think Christianity has a whole is harmful for while I might be opposed to many of it's doctrines and values, a religion is more then just as set of doctrines, morals and sacred texts. It's also a community of people who all perceive and incarnate those values and doctrines differently.

I will also take some offense to the fact you basically present my values and beliefs as being no difference then some sort of caricatural version of nihilism and individualism both of which are basically anathema to humanism.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
It's interesting how in the US this is noteworthy enough to warrant a blog post and discussion, whereas in Europe the reaction is more like...."So what?"

Given the current trends away from religion in the US, I suspect that it won't be long before "raising kids without religion" will be as unremarkable in the US as it is in Europe.

I imagine many Americans--myself included--aren't shocked by this article.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Another insightful article from the perspective of the non-believer.



I Am Unapologetically Raising My Daughter Without Religion
Is this really newsworthy in America?
I mean here down under, people could care less about religion. I know plenty of people raised non religious. And even the ones who weren’t, it’s not like we discuss it. In fact I only found out about a lot of my friends’ religious upbringings kind of randomly.
Though strangely a lot of our leaders are obnoxious Christian yobbos.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
This may be too personal a question, but I sure wonder how often and at what age did they ask.

My kids ask from time to time. Actually, mostly just my youngest. She's 9, and has some Christian friends. I generally go with 'Some people think....' and then do my best to explain the religious view. Gets trickier when her question is about Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Hindus, etc.
She invariably asks me what I think, in which case I tell her. But the aim is for her to know she can make her own choices.

She's been asking questions since around 5 or 6, and they're typically prompted by the environment around us. Travel prompts more questions. Christenings. Christmas. Seeing people in unusual clothing. That type of thing.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Is this really newsworthy in America?
I mean here down under, people could care less about religion. I know plenty of people raised non religious. And even the ones who weren’t, it’s not like we discuss it. In fact I only found out about a lot of my friends’ religious upbringings kind of randomly.
Though strangely a lot of our leaders are obnoxious Christian yobbos.

It's not so strange when you think about it.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Is this really newsworthy in America?
I mean here down under, people could care less about religion. I know plenty of people raised non religious. And even the ones who weren’t, it’s not like we discuss it. In fact I only found out about a lot of my friends’ religious upbringings kind of randomly.
Though strangely a lot of our leaders are obnoxious Christian yobbos.

It's not so strange when you think about it.

I see It is a trend that will change. Australia will no doubt face hard times, if it continues on the trend to neglected our spiritual well being.

The world as a whole also.

Communities have to be built on virtues, that then unfold in actions of service.

Regards Tony
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I see It is a trend that will change. Australia will no doubt face hard times, if it continues on the trend to neglected our spiritual well being.

The world as a whole also.

Communities have to be built on virtues, that then unfold in actions of service.

Regards Tony
No one neglects spiritual well being in Australia. At least not actively that I can see. But a secular government is better than a theocracy any day. One needs to be religiously neutral to benefit the population overall. Spirituality is a matter of one’s private business.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
No one neglects spiritual well being in Australia. At least not actively that I can see. But a secular government is better than a theocracy any day. One needs to be religiously neutral to benefit the population overall. Spirituality is a matter of one’s private business.

A secular government needs to implement laws for the good of all. Anarchy can not work.

Thus the quandary of your post and this OP. Who has the wisdom as to what are the best laws and guidance for humanity to follow?

Regards Tony
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
A secular government needs to implement laws for the good of all. Anarchy can not work.

Thus the quandary of your post. Who has the wisdom as to what are the best laws for humanity to follow?

Regards Tony
I’d argue that is an ongoing process. But the way I see it, dogma (usually religious but can be applicable to secular values to a degree) impedes that process by eliciting a degree of hubris which stagnates that process. We must be willing to accept that we all have shortcomings and that we are still learning. But if one has the “Truth” TM how does one adjust to a changing world? How does one correct themselves when they think they speak for a God?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
A secular government needs to implement laws for the good of all. Anarchy can not work.

Apologies to any anarchists reading on, but yes, I agree.

Thus the quandary of your post and this OP. Who has the wisdom as to what are the best laws and guidance for humanity to follow?

No-one. Only by combining our collective talents and skills can we do this. If we absolutely have to put all the power in the hands of one person, I'll reluctantly volunteer, but that's purely because I don't trust anyone else to get it right, not because I'd do a good job.
 
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