More Cops Assassinated

[columbus]

Until George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and their associates are tried and thrown in prison, the statement that "there are investigations and appropriate steps taken" doesn't hold much weight on a grand scale.

Imagine how different the world would be if US involvement in Iraq got as much senate scrutiny as Libyan involvement got.
Tom

 

[metis]

You may have lost me there.....are you saying many in BLM are 'people putting themselves in harm's way for the protection of us all.'??

Are you saying BLM is not claiming a systematic mistreatment of blacks by the police of this country producing unwarranted violence and death toward many black individuals they encounter??

I am aware of BLM's official positions and of course it is against violence in the protests. But what I am arguing is that their cause, in highlighting 'black lives', is helping to produce the atmosphere of racial emotions where violent nut-jobs will be provoked to act out. Its end result is clearly increasing the national sense of racial divide and furthering pessimism.

The BLM movement has legitimate concerns as both stats and events have clearly indicated. As with many protest movements, they exist to bring awareness to a problem(s), so they are as American as apple pie. Their website is quite clear on their goals and how they view others, including the police, so let me recommend you go there and check it out for yourself. They are a response to what's been happening, not the cause.

 

[George-ananda]

Until George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and their associates are tried and thrown in prison, the statement that "there are investigations and appropriate steps taken" doesn't hold much weight on a grand scale.

Perhaps, others view some facts and issues differently than you claim them.

And yes, there is a more preferable way: how about people stop glorifying the military and police and putting them on a pedestal as if they were some sort of saints?

Not saints, but brave men willing to stand in harm's way. Saints are holy and close to perfect as individuals.

Yes, there are individual heroes among military and police personnel, just like how things are with most other professions (but perhaps more noticeably with those two professions because of how risky their nature is), but as a group? I don't think they should be idealized.

I think they should be respected and appreciated for law and order can not exist without their willingness to stand in harm's way.

 

[George-ananda]

The BLM movement has legitimate concerns as both stats and events have clearly indicated. As with many protest movements, they exist to bring awareness to a problem(s), so they are as American as apple pie. Their website is quite clear on their goals and how they view others, including the police, so let me recommend you go there and check it out for yourself. They are a response to what's been happening, not the cause.

I have no problem with legal protesting. I am saying this particular group is misguided from the beginning. By focusing on 'black lives' and claiming systemic persecution of blacks by police they are creating an atmosphere detrimental to any positive goal for increased harmony. Once you create this atmosphere a lot goes downhill quickly until there is a cooling off of the rhetoric. This group has done far more harm than good and has cost lives. Most Americans believe the police are not perfect but are pretty darn good and that there is no justification at this time for this organization to stir-up the emotional atmosphere that will in the end work against their stated goals.

 

[metis]

I have no problem with legal protesting. I am saying this particular group is misguided from the beginning. By focusing on 'black lives' and claiming systemic persecution of blacks by police they are creating an atmosphere detrimental to any positive goal for increased harmony. Once you create this atmosphere a lot goes downhill quickly until there is a cooling off of the rhetoric. This group has done far more harm than good and has cost lives. Most Americans believe the police are not perfect but are pretty darn good and that there is no justification at this time for this organization to stir-up the emotional atmosphere that will in the end work against their stated goals.

How could they be "misguided" when we have seen quite a few cases even just recently where unarmed black men are being killed? Am I or BLM blaming most or even a large minority of police? No.

As far as the "rhetoric" is concerned, yes there have been all too many over-the-top statements made by some of the protesters, but that should not be viewed as being typical of where BLM is coming from. How many times have we heard words of those within the movement trying to stop that kind of rhetoric? Many.

I have consistently taken the position that "black lives matter", "police lives matter", and "all lives matter", and the BLM movement has also said the same. They and I are not being "divisive"-- those that do not support the tone and message of all three are the ones that are truly being divisive, because "all lives matter" must logically and morally include "black lives matter" and "police lives matter".

Anyhow, I'll let you have the last word after this post.

 

[George-ananda]

Am I or BLM blaming most or even a large minority of police? No.


Anyhow, I'll let you have the last word after this post.

And my last word is that I still disagree with the above sentences. I believe BLM is claiming a systematic undue attention, force and violence being used against black individuals by police agencies.

Plus, your statement seems to indicate they are just protesting just some individual events and not making any grander statement.

 

[Mister_T]

They were not all white. Officer Montrell Jackson was a black police officer killed in Baton Rogue. He was 32 years old and leaves behind his wife and 4 month old baby.

That definitely not the case (killing only white cops) is the case in Baton Rouge. In Dallas however, the shooter openly proclaimed that he was targeting white cops and wanted to kill as many as he could.

 

[Underhill]

And my last word is that I still disagree with the above sentences. I believe BLM is claiming a systematic undue attention, force and violence being used against black individuals by police agencies.

Plus, your statement seems to indicate they are just protesting just some individual events and not making any grander statement.

The problem is not with the goals of BLM but the individuals, who often take it off the rails. (much like any protest group) These shootings of police are no different than the nuts who blow up abortions clinics or shoot abortion doctors.

There is a widespread problem with black men and the law. I think the shootings are just the tip of the iceberg. But as the people on the street, they get the brunt of the exposure. The bigger problem is in the courts where the rate of conviction is higher and sentences are longer.

There are other problems in the community at large that are as large or larger, but nobody knows what to do about those.

 

[George-ananda]

There is a widespread problem with black men and the law. I think the shootings are just the tip of the iceberg. But as the people on the street, they get the brunt of the exposure. The bigger problem is in the courts where the rate of conviction is higher and sentences are longer.

Maybe I can do a better job in explaining the post you commented on, that I had directed to @metis .

I see the root of the problem is that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime, violent crime and social/domestic crimes and wrongs. This root problem will predictably produce the secondary problem of psychologically jading some police, judges and lay people giving them an occasional 'attitude'. While we can work on correcting this secondary problem, this is not a major problem in my opinion as I believe the police in general do their jobs very well and heroically.

Focusing on police issues, as the media has done with BLM, is only fueling the attitudes and emotions of all sides in this. It has been divisive and a net detriment to the country and has increased the national sense of racial divide.

 

[Underhill]

Maybe I can do a better job in explaining the post you commented on, that I had directed to @metis .

I see the root of the problem is that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime, violent crime and social/domestic crimes and wrongs. This root problem will predictably produce the secondary problem of psychologically jading some police, judges and lay people giving them an occasional 'attitude'. While we can work on correcting this secondary problem, this is not a major problem in my opinion as I believe the police in general do their jobs very well and heroically.

Focusing on police issues, as the media has done with BLM, is only fueling the attitudes and emotions of all sides in this. It has been divisive and a net detriment to the country and has increased the national sense of racial divide.

You may have a point. But I think you underestimate the impact of the problem. If young black men think they aren't getting a fair shake by the law, that tends to add to the sense of hopelessness that leads to crime. It creates an environment where people feel the system is rigged.

I think we need to deal with the problems in the courthouse and police station as best we can. It's the least we can do.

As for the racial divide, I think only white people think it didn't exist long before this. All this is doing is bringing it into the daylight. It is debatable whether or not this is a positive, in the short term it isn't. In the long run, it all depends on what we do.

 

[George-ananda]

You may have a point.

You try to see both sides better than most.

But I think you underestimate the impact of the problem. If young black men think they aren't getting a fair shake by the law, that tends to add to the sense of hopelessness that leads to crime. It creates an environment where people feel the system is rigged.

Ok, here you are talking about the 'vicious circle'. There may be some truth to it but I don't see that spirit of hopelessness justified in 2016 America. At some point it sounds like more an excuse than a cause. People know that if they don't do anything wrong and treat any encounters with the police with the proper respect due a public official, the odds of getting into trouble with the police are remote.

I think we need to deal with the problems in the courthouse and police station as best we can. It's the least we can do.

With the legal system the difference may be more financial than racial; an uncaring overworked court appointed lawyer versus an aggressive paid attorney. OJ surely got a good shake from the legal system.

As for the racial divide, I think only white people think it didn't exist long before this. All this is doing is bringing it into the daylight. It is debatable whether or not this is a positive, in the short term it isn't. In the long run, it all depends on what we do.

I think everyone knew a racial divide existed. As the problem is in the attitudes and not the laws, finding issues to inflame the conflict is not going improve attitudes. As Obama said we need to tone down the rhetoric.

 

[leibowde84]

We need to solely focus on preventing anarchist groups, black racist groups such as BLM and Panthers, radical Islamist groups, communist groups, Afro-centric pan Africa sovereignty from US government groups and "black soverignity" cells or followers, et all, and their terrorist agenda against the American and Western society.

Defend the police. No time to had megaphones to the insanity of the false narratives.

We are being told we need to change our behavior. No. We will not be told that, those who violate our society must change their brhavior. I don't care if you are behind in your taxes. I don't care if you want your own "African" nation in the Southern states. I don't care about your "racial sovereignty". I don't care about your "anti-colonialism". Stop killing cops.

Yet another terrorist attack. Three dead cops. A militarized hater. Terrorist.

What about black Lives Matters message do you find racist?

 

[Underhill]

You try to see both sides better than most.

Ok, here you are talking about the 'vicious circle'. There may be some truth to it but I don't see that spirit of hopelessness justified in 2016 America. At some point it sounds like more an excuse than a cause. People know that if they don't do anything wrong and treat any encounters with the police with the proper respect due a public official, the odds of getting into trouble with the police are remote.

Yeah, but I find it a bit sad when I see all the videos talking about all the steps you need to take when you get pulled over so police don't get angry. I've never done any of them. I have never copped any serious attitude towards them, but I've broken virtually every other rule with police, including arguing with them over their claims and never felt I was at risk of getting hauled out of the car. But I've talked to too many black people who have experienced much worse to think there isn't some assumption of guilt when an officer pulls over a black guy as apposed to me.

With the legal system the difference may be more financial than racial; an uncaring overworked court appointed lawyer versus an aggressive paid attorney. OJ surely got a good shake from the legal system.

Maybe it is, but isn't that worth addressing?

I think everyone knew a racial divide existed. As the problem is in the attitudes and not the laws, finding issues to inflame the conflict is not going improve attitudes. As Obama said we need to tone down the rhetoric.

I'm not talking about rhetoric. I'm talking about actually trying to make substantial changes in policy. Better training for police (there is a vast gulf between the training some police get and others). More clear cut sentencing guidelines. These kinds of things could make a difference and at the very least signal that we are trying to improve things.

 

[George-ananda]

Yeah, but I find it a bit sad when I see all the videos talking about all the steps you need to take when you get pulled over so police don't get angry. I've never done any of them. I have never copped any serious attitude towards them, but I've broken virtually every other rule with police, including arguing with them over their claims and never felt I was at risk of getting hauled out of the car. But I've talked to too many black people who have experienced much worse to think there isn't some assumption of guilt when an officer pulls over a black guy as apposed to me.

I see that I have a more pro-police attitude than you on this whole thing. They are putting their life and health at risk every time they walk up to a car or individual. They know nothing about you and should start from a place of caution. The system should be set up for officer safety! What harm does it do to anyone to expect people to be co-operative and polite.

 

[suncowiam]

Am I or BLM blaming most or even a large minority of police? No.

I get the sense that BLM blames all police?

You have folks here that are speaking of the police as a whole and support BLM. I recently tried to acknowledge how much generalization there is going on from both sides, but it fell flat on the ground. Both sides are angry and just pointing the finger without trying to acknowledge where they can help and take responsibility.

 

[Mister_T]

What about black Lives Matters message do you find racist?

I wouldn't say it's the whole movement or even most, but going off of various comments from Facebook and Twitter there is definitely a growing fringe that believe it's okay to be racist against whites.

 

[leibowde84]

I wouldn't say it's the whole movement or even most, but going off of various comments from Facebook and Twitter there is definitely a growing fringe that believe it's okay to be racist against whites.

But, it seems that you realize it yourself that it isn't the Black Lives Matter movement, but a "fringe" of those in it. I wouldn't say that Christianity is a homophobic movement simply because a fringe of its members are that way. Would you?

 

[Mister_T]

But, it seems that you realize it yourself that it isn't the Black Lives Matter movement, but a "fringe" of those in it. I wouldn't say that Christianity is a homophobic movement simply because a fringe of its members are that way. Would you?

I said it's a growing fringe, and with cops in Dallas being assassinated based on their skin color I don't think it's something we can just dismiss as being a minor element that we can sweep under the rug.

I wouldn't say Christianity as a whole is a homophobic movement, but if you're a religious homophobe living in America, what religion would you guess they're following?

 

[leibowde84]

I said it's a growing fringe, and with cops in Dallas being assassinated based on their skin color I don't think it's something we can just dismiss as being a minor element that we can sweep under the rug.

I wouldn't say Christianity as a whole is a homophobic movement, but if you're a religious homophobe living in America, what religion would you guess they're following?

I wouldn't assume. Most likely Islam, Judaism or Christianity.

 

[Underhill]

I see that I have a more pro-police attitude than you on this whole thing. They are putting their life and health at risk every time they walk up to a car or individual. They know nothing about you and should start from a place of caution. The system should be set up for officer safety! What harm does it do to anyone to expect people to be co-operative and polite.

It's fine to expect them to be co-operative and polite. I'm simply saying the fact that black people feel the need to keep hands in plain view at all times, while it never even occurred to me (or most other white people I know) tells me there is a problem.

I am not anti-cop. I have friends at the sheriffs office. Have worked with the local police on training's for the scouts.

But I do not give anyone a free pass just because of their job title. They chose their profession. For many of them it had very little to do with 'protect and serve' and everything to do with putting food on the table the same as the rest of us. Cops, firefighters or used car salesmen, they should all be held accountable for their behavior.