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More Dawkins idiocy...

Olinda

Member
So, back to the opening post. As I understand it, the point was that Richard Dawkins attacks and ridicules religions and ideologies that are not "evidence-based", while upholding "humanism", which itself has no basis in evidence.
As I understand it, that has not been refuted, right?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
As I understand it, the point was that Richard Dawkins attacks and ridicules religions and ideologies that are not "evidence-based", while upholding "humanism",

Welcome Olinda.

I'm not sure you understood the OP at all.

It was about ideologies, and the dangers of such.

Religious faiths such as Stalinism, Nazism & Islam are dangerous because they teach that pie-in-the-sky Ends justify horrific Means.
 

Olinda

Member
Thanks for your reply, outhouse. With respect, Mr Dawkins tweets were indeed about the dangers of certain religious faiths or ideologies, but Augustus' post was about the inconsistency of Richard Dawkins' stated beliefs.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I have watched many debates between Richard Dawkins and the religious, and every single debate, Dawkins makes a fool out of the religious.
 

Olinda

Member
Psychoslice, that's my problem :( . I cannot agree with Mr Dawkins, as far as bashing any and all religion goes, but I need to learn how to rebut effectively. . . or change my own views. . .:)
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Psychoslice, that's my problem :( . I cannot agree with Mr Dawkins, as far as bashing any and all religion goes, but I need to learn how to rebut effectively. . . or change my own views. . .:)
Well you are too much into your beliefs, you cannot see beyond your belief's because you are blinded by your beliefs, Dawkins isn't blinded by any beliefs, he simply say's what is known, not that which is not known, or believe to be known.
 
So, back to the opening post. As I understand it, the point was that Richard Dawkins attacks and ridicules religions and ideologies that are not "evidence-based", while upholding "humanism", which itself has no basis in evidence.
As I understand it, that has not been refuted, right?

Yes, exactly. He claims Stalinism and Naziism are 'religions' (because religion = bad, so bad must = religion. It's convenient to his ideology), but if they are 'religions' in the non-literal sense, then so is humanism.

He then criticises 'evidence free ideologies' as dangerous, without realising that his own ideology is also 'evidence free'.

He rails against religion for lacking 'logic and reason' but his own view are no more objectively true than the resurrection of Jesus.

His entire worldview depends on the idea that 'science + reason = secular humanism', which is nonsense. People talk of 'enlightenment values', but many Enlightenment thinkers were very illiberal, science and reason can just as easily lead to despotism as freedom.

I'm not sure you understood the OP at all.

It was about ideologies, and the dangers of such.

No, it was about me getting annoyed that Dawkins treats anyone who holds ideologies he dislikes to be moronic idiots, yet he doesn't realise that his own views have many of the same characteristics.

As I mentioned, it is not about which ideologies are better or worse, just that he is being hypocritical and a touch ignorant. he might be a good biologist, but he isn't very scientific in his approach to discussing religion, more a mediocre polemicist.

Ideologies, in general, tend not be grounded in pure reason. they are more subjective value judgements and rest on certain unprovable assumption. Because of this, there is no ideology that is universal, and never will be.

Searching for one is a fools errand, and a harmful one at that (see Iraq war, French Revolution, etc.)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Augustus,

Based on your last post, it appears you don't understand Dawkins very well. While I can't speak for him, my experience of reading his work and listening to his talks would lead me to say that Dawkins believes:

- Ideologies like Stalinism are similar to religion in that they both rely heavily on dogmatism over critical thinking.
- Valuing science and reason DOES lead to secular humanism. (Personally, I'd be interested in any counter-examples that you have.)
- There is much evidence that secular humanism DOES lead to morally positive results, e.g. Scandinavia.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
He claims Stalinism and Naziism are 'religions' (because religion = bad, so bad must = religion. It's convenient to his ideology),

No, he stated they are ideologies, he clarified it quite clearly.

And he put islam in with then due to its negative ideological aspects on society.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No, it was about me getting annoyed that Dawkins treats anyone who holds ideologies he dislikes to be moronic idiots,

I'm sorry but ignoring the required fanaticism and fundamentalism, does not fix anything in violent societies that commit genocide and breed hatred.

like it or not your radicals are a problem within islam
 
No, he stated they are ideologies, he clarified it quite clearly.

And he put islam in with then due to its negative ideological aspects on society.

I think that's exactly what it's about. Some ideologies inevitably lead to oppression and suffering, that's the whole point.

If some ideologies lead to oppression and suffering this is not due to the fact that they are 'evidence free' or that they have 'religious' characteristics. This is a correlation/causation error.

Ideologies supposedly based on reason (Marxism, Jacobinism, Enlightenment scientific racism) can be harmful, whereas Jainism is 'evidence free' but harmless.

One of the driving causes of the Iraq War was pretty much Humanism (secular democratic progress), which again is 'evidence free'.

Humanism is better than Islamism, in my opinion. It is not more 'objectively true' though or based on more objective reason.

I don't object to his humanism, I object to him thinking that his humanism is a ration, scientific, evidence based ideology. This view is wrong and harmful.

@Olinda understood my point, you're still missing it.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If some ideologies lead to oppression and suffering this is not due to the fact that they are 'evidence free' or that they have 'religious' characteristics. This

Bit your still ignoring how his points are address the negative side of islam
 

outhouse

Atheistically
negatives of Islam was never the topic, why should I address it?

Because that is the context of Dawkins quotes you mined.

Your just taking his quotes out of context and playing word games, to justify your own rhetoric, is the way I see it.
 
Because that is the context of Dawkins quotes you mined.

Your just taking his quotes out of context and playing word games, to justify your own rhetoric, is the way I see it.

Dawkins is a humanist. Do you believe he thinks humanism is more rational than religion?
 
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