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More News on the Changing Evolution Scene :-) !!! :-)

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The point is that many believe humans in the form of what is considered as homo sapiens developed by means of evolution. Yet the experts are constantly changing their theoretical formations of opinion about the situation of sizing them up and categorizing these fossils.
Yes.
The experts also believe that subatomic particles make up the fundamental material of the universe. But they are constantly discovering new ones, and refining and recategorizing these fundamental particles as research progresses..
The experts believe bacteria and virus cause diseases. But they are constantly discovering new disease causing bacteria and virus and finding new things about how they infect people and cause disease.


All of this is normal in EVERY scientific discipline. Are you aware that scientists are constantly discussing, discovering and modifying the theories behind HOW WATER BOILS till this date, and will continue to do this for the next 100 years at least. I can refer you to 50 -60 papers on this one subject defending, discarding, refining, proposing old and new ideas on how boiling of water happens from the last 10 years alone. None of this means that we know nothing about boiling of water however, or that water boiling is an unexplained miracle.
The best way to understand science is NOT to look at something that is sensational and polarizing, but something that is mundane. See how science works in these mundane things, understand the process of science. And then look at something polarizing and see if the proper way of doing science is being pursued.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That is one reason why there is so much confusion in religion. But the Bible explains that each human being is a soul, and when we die, the soul also dies. But it offers hope for a future life. OK, thanks for explaining your viewpoint.
It's not confusing at all. The Bible is not at all clear about soul. Anyways, different discussion.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Many things were doubted both in and outside of the Bible. There are records of doubt within the pages of the Bible. This enhances the record of truthfulness because it shows that even while the prophets were warning the people, the people did not always believe them or listen to them.
And there are some places, such as the pool of Siloam, whose existence was doubted until it was uncovered in 2004 when repairing the water system near Jerusalem.
I don't see how this "enhances the record of truthfulness"
of the Bible, let alone all the other creation stories.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, there are changes. You do not appear to appreciate the nature of the changes. They keep getting smaller and smaller.. We are just filling in the details at this time.

Why do you think that is a problem?
I
You are arguing against a strawman version of evolution. The changes that we directly observe are small. We have directly observed speciation, but just like you are still an ape, the new species still belong the group that they always belonged to.

Just keep repeating "A change of kind is a creationist strawman. A change of kind is a creationist strawman. A change of kind . .. "
The essential fundamental of evolution is that things happened without any divine influence. Period. As if God (or a superior intelligence) were not involved with creating the forms of life. While I don't believe that a rock falling and hitting a man on the head and killing him is from God, nevertheless God endowed life, and right now it is not perfect, but the hope is that one day life will be changed to something far better than what we see today. That from God.
Plus I don't "know" the actual transitions as postulated by Darwin and fellow believers. Meaning that I can read their summations, but this does not show or prove that it happened by evolution as such. Although some could have happened by genetic transference. I do know that various plants and/or animals can have similar characteristics. This, to me, does not prove Darwin's theory.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's not confusing at all. The Bible is not at all clear about soul. Anyways, different discussion.
Yes, the discussion can get involved. Unless a person gets the point almost like a bolt of lightning. But then, the fact that the religious belief may impinge upon what is considered as evolution would negate one or the other. To have different scales of weighing how life came about and then saying one does not impinge upon the other is not in my opinion a fair way to go. Either one is true, or the other is. It's almost like saying either a tiger is a tiger or it is not.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are arguing against a strawman version of evolution. The changes that we directly observe are small. We have directly observed speciation, but just like you are still an ape, the new species still belong the group that they always belonged to.

Just keep repeating "A change of kind is a creationist strawman. A change of kind is a creationist strawman. A change of kind . .. "
As I am looking into this, I see that although the dynamics of genetics may be slightly but distinctly different between various groups of people (ethnicities), they are all humans of the homo sapien kind.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, the discussion can get involved. Unless a person gets the point almost like a bolt of lightning. But then, the fact that the religious belief may impinge upon what is considered as evolution would negate one or the other. To have different scales of weighing how life came about and then saying one does not impinge upon the other is not in my opinion a fair way to go. Either one is true, or the other is. It's almost like saying either a tiger is a tiger or it is not.
In hinduism soul transmigration has no relevance regarding speciation through evolution.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes.
The experts also believe that subatomic particles make up the fundamental material of the universe. But they are constantly discovering new ones, and refining and recategorizing these fundamental particles as research progresses..
The experts believe bacteria and virus cause diseases. But they are constantly discovering new disease causing bacteria and virus and finding new things about how they infect people and cause disease.


All of this is normal in EVERY scientific discipline. Are you aware that scientists are constantly discussing, discovering and modifying the theories behind HOW WATER BOILS till this date, and will continue to do this for the next 100 years at least. I can refer you to 50 -60 papers on this one subject defending, discarding, refining, proposing old and new ideas on how boiling of water happens from the last 10 years alone. None of this means that we know nothing about boiling of water however, or that water boiling is an unexplained miracle.
The best way to understand science is NOT to look at something that is sensational and polarizing, but something that is mundane. See how science works in these mundane things, understand the process of science. And then look at something polarizing and see if the proper way of doing science is being pursued.
The Bible is not a scientific textbook. However, it does discuss briefly the outline of creation. And it makes sense to me.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In hinduism soul transmigration has no relevance regarding speciation through evolution.
Why not? Because unless the organisms carrying a transmigrated soul evolved, which I suppose some would have it that it did, it would make not much sense. Actually, evolution and soul transmigration should be connected or maybe should not be connected IF a body or soul does not evolve. And of course, souls as known by many would not have genes, would they? Of course, would a soul skip a few lineages of transference, I guess it wouldn't go into an extinct animal or human form. Yes, this definitely should be involved with evolution. Because, according to the theory of soul transmigration, a different life-form is involved.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why not? Because unless the organisms carrying a transmigrated soul evolved, which I suppose some would have it that it did, it would make not much sense. Actually, evolution and soul transmigration should be connected or maybe should not be connected IF a body or soul does not evolve. And of course, souls as known by many would not have genes, would they? Of course, would a soul skip a few lineages of transference, I guess it wouldn't go into an extinct animal or human form. Yes, this definitely should be involved with evolution. Because, according to the theory of soul transmigration, a different life-form is involved.
Evolution of the physical body and the brain is distinct from the movement of soul from one body to another. Very briefly, the soul is like gasoline, which can power any style of car or two Wheeler regardless of model.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The point is that many believe humans in the form of what is considered as homo sapiens developed by means of evolution. Yet the experts are constantly changing their theoretical formations of opinion about the situation of sizing them up and categorizing these fossils.

Yes, it's called learning.

You confuse the process of evolution with evolutionary history.

It's one thing to genetically determine that two individuals share ancestors.
It's another thing to unravel that exact lineage.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The essential fundamental of evolution is that things happened without any divine influence.

Evolution says no such thing. Instead, "divine interventions" are merely not included, for the simple reason that there is no reason or evidence to suggest it plays a role, or that it is even a thing to begin with.

But it doesn't explicitly exclude it. I'm sorry that you can't manage to comprehend the difference.

Period. As if God (or a superior intelligence) were not involved with creating the forms of life.

There is zero rational reason to think otherwise. Or that such a god even exists in the first place.
So why would anyone assume otherwise?

While I don't believe that a rock falling and hitting a man on the head and killing him is from God, nevertheless God endowed life

That is just your religious belief and it has nothing to do with anything scientific.
Why would any scientist include any faith-based religious proposition in any scientific theory about anything?


Plus I don't "know" the actual transitions as postulated by Darwin and fellow believers. Meaning that I can read their summations, but this does not show or prove that it happened by evolution as such

The reason why you don't "know" about such, is because you are willfully ignorant on the matter and categorically and dogmatically refuse to learn anything about the topic. Plenty of people how explained to you what a transitional is and how it can be recognized. But it's in one ear and out the other instantly. All you do is dogmatically hold on to your strawmen, which have been pointed out a thousand times over, which you continue to repeat at nauseum.

What do you hope to accomplish with this behavior?
Even in this thread alone, every post you make to argue "against" evolution, you are merely arguing strawmen.
And you completely ignore every post that points it out.

Just like you ignored all my posts where I bring to your attention that "mere similarity" in DNA is not what the conclusion of common ancestry is based on. You avoid it like the plague that it is actually about the pattern of matches (not mere similarities). And that this is the exact same concept that is used to determine kinship between any 2 individuals using DNA testing.

Insisting on arguing strawmen is not going to make you win the argument. Au contraire. It's just exposing the intellectual dishonesty with which you approach this topic.


Although some could have happened by genetic transference. I do know that various plants and/or animals can have similar characteristics. This, to me, does not prove Darwin's theory.

Well... read up a bit one of these days, from proper sources instead of creationist propaganda. And maybe you'll learn about the errors in your thinking. But that is something you are going to have to do yourself. We can explain it time and again, but unless you break down that religious dogmatic wall you have build around your mind....

It's upto you. Are you willing to learn and actually understand this subject, or do you want to remain ignorant and continue to argue strawmen in an effort to protect your a priori religious beliefs?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
As I am looking into this, I see that although the dynamics of genetics may be slightly but distinctly different between various groups of people (ethnicities), they are all humans of the homo sapien kind.

Yes. And so will their descendants be. They might, and will, speciate further into sub-species. But they will always remain in the group of homo sapiens.

Just like homo sapiens will always remain in the groups of great apes, primates, mammals, tetrapods, vertebrates, eukaryotes,....


Because a "change in kind" is a creationist strawman.
It's a law in evolutionary biology: species never outgrow their ancestry. Species do not "jump branches" on the tree of life. Instead, they merely split into sub-branches.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't explain them as a reason for life coming about by and because of evolution. In fact, there is really no need to explain the similarities of DNA in that sense. There are anyway, profound differences in the capacities of living organisms based on differences in the DNA makeup. I will say, however, that reading about microbes recently, it is said that a huge amount of microbes exist in the air as well as soil. Therefore, for Moses to write that God made Adam from the soil and Eve from Adam's rib is in line with what's in the soil and air. But they didn't come about the way our eyes see it now, as if explained simply by genetic transformation of the happenstance kind.
But nobody uses DNA as a reason for life coming about, and the ToE was not based on any knowledge of DNA.
Not necessarily. It depends. On the other hand, let's look for a moment at the Israelites in the wilderness. God, through Moses, gave that nation particular commands. He did NOT give those commands to the Amorites, Moabites, Amalakites and so forth. Yet as the nation of Israel grew, He worked with them, explaining Himself through the prophets, giving new direction when apporopriate.
Your major premise is unsupported. What Israelites in the wilderness? Show me some evidence supporting the exodus story.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The point is that many believe humans in the form of what is considered as homo sapiens developed by means of evolution. Yet the experts are constantly changing their theoretical formations of opinion about the situation of sizing them up and categorizing these fossils.
But the experts aren't changing their belief that humans evolved. The basics of the process are not in contention. New discoveries do not challenge the fact of evolution, just the details of migration patterns and lines of descent.
It's just there. Because the interim emergence of a new, different species has no concrete explanation in terms of changing of genomes. At least my friend Leeuwunhoek was able to see microbes fabulously under a microscope. But no one can see one distinct form changing to another.
But we have.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Evolution of the physical body and the brain is distinct from the movement of soul from one body to another. Very briefly, the soul is like gasoline, which can power any style of car or two Wheeler regardless of model.
OK, yes this is connected to our discussion. What happens if the fetus dies in the womb?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But the experts aren't changing their belief that humans evolved. The basics of the process are not in contention. New discoveries do not challenge the fact of evolution, just the details of migration patterns and lines of descent.

But we have.
Explain. And so you're saying scientists have seen new and distinct varieties of organisms evolve under the microscope and continue with a variety of the previous form? (I don't think so, but -- if you think so, please be so kind as to explain. Thanks.)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But nobody uses DNA as a reason for life coming about, and the ToE was not based on any knowledge of DNA.
Your major premise is unsupported. What Israelites in the wilderness? Show me some evidence supporting the exodus story.
OK, you didn't get my point. I understand. I'm speaking about the Bible record.
 
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