More than half of Americans say it should be legal for gays and lesbians to marry,

[doppelganger]

Indeed.
From the site...

Though, as to this topic, they have one other difference. Homosexuality between consenting adults is prohibited in the Qu'ran. Raping non-consenting animals is not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I 100% agree that there should be legal unity between homosexual couples, but do not understand why there can not be a differential. Marriage is defined as the unity of a man and a woman. What would be wrong with a slightly different name such as unified marriage? Maybe this would keep both sides happy?

The difference between calling a relationship a civil union instead of a marriage can still have implications. For instance, even if the two have the same rights in the US, what happens if you're travelling abroad? Will your relationship be recognized at a foreign hospital if you need to conset to care for your incapacitated spouse? Depends on the local laws, and some countries recognize foreign marriages but not foreign civil unions. What if you move to another country? Will your American relationship be recognized there automatically?

Also, if there's a distinction under the law between same-sex marriage and opposite-sex marriage, even if there's no difference in rights now, the fact that there's a legal distinction between them could make it easier for a difference to be created in future.

 

[Alceste]

Eselam, your posts constitute hate speech. Imagine if I were to go on about how Muslims are dirty, mentally and morally defective, that there's no difference between worshipping Allah and having sex with animals, or that Muslims are infested with communicable diseases. Whether it's true or not, if I started writing that kind of thing I'd be banned immediately. So you might want to tread carefully. There's no telling when the mods might decide to apply forum rules against hate speech more uniformly than they currently do.

 

[Noaidi]

this is why they are sick, literally:

Main article: Origin of AIDS
AIDS was first reported June 5, 1981, when the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) recorded a cluster of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (now still classified as PCP but known to be caused by Pneumocystis jirovecii) in five homosexual men in Los Angeles.[14]

AIDS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

why they are silly:

because first of all it is sick (see above) and then it is silly because so long as 2 people give consent it makes it ok, even though it is sick and disgusting just like bestiality.

p.s you have to stop asking that question.

I tried to have a look at the links, but the first one was broken. I'm hoping it wasn't the usual homophobic hysteria of "gays created and spread AIDS. It's their punishment from god / allah / whoever."

 

[Noaidi]

Alceste
Good post. Eselam is treading a fine line here.

 

[Skwim]

Eselam, your posts constitute hate speech. Imagine if I were to go on about how Muslims are dirty, mentally and morally defective, that there's no difference between worshipping Allah and having sex with animals, or that Muslims are infested with communicable diseases. Whether it's true or not, if I started writing that kind of thing I'd be banned immediately. So you might want to tread carefully. There's no telling when the mods might decide to apply forum rules against hate speech more uniformly than they currently do.

I agree. If Eselam needs to vent his homophobia I'm sure there's a "We Hate ****" website that would more than welcome a brother bigot. From where I sit, his opinions don't deserve to be aired on RF.

 

[Bismillah]

Maybe the folks who wrote this should decide what our values ought to be instead:

Islam and Bestiality - WikiIslam

Though, as to this topic, they have one other difference. Homosexuality between consenting adults is prohibited in the Qu'ran. Raping non-consenting animals is not.

While I am not disregarding the obviously scholarly authority of Wiki Islam, it would be most helpful to look at what is clearly and explicitly stated in Islam.

"Whoever comes to an animal, kill him and kill it with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him (Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal? He replied: I think he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had been done to it. " Abu Huraira and Ibn Abbas.

" Cursed is he who goes in unto an animal." Abdallah Ibn Abbas.

 

[Autodidact]

While I am not disregarding the obviously scholarly authority of Wiki Islam, it would be most helpful to look at what is clearly and explicitly stated in Islam.

"Whoever comes to an animal, kill him and kill it with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him (Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal? He replied: I think he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had been done to it. " Abu Huraira and Ibn Abbas.

" Cursed is he who goes in unto an animal." Abdallah Ibn Abbas.

Well, isn't it misleading to say this is explicitly stated in Islam, since many Muslims don't accept any hadith, let alone this specific one?

 

[Autodidact]

I also like someone who defends pedophilia condemning the committed love of two adults.

 

[YmirGF]

I agree. If Eselam needs to vent his homophobia I'm sure there's a "We Hate ****" website that would more than welcome a brother bigot. From where I sit, his opinions don't deserve to be aired on RF.

In all fairness to Eselam, the viewpoint he is espousing is fairly mainstream with all too many Muslims. So are, what is likely the vast majority of Muslims, a bigoted group because they do not share our views of sexuality?

 

[Autodidact]

In all fairness to Eselam, the viewpoint he is espousing is fairly mainstream with all too many Muslims. So are, what is likely the vast majority of Muslims, a bigoted group because they do not share our views of sexuality?

Yes. And the source of their bigotry is Islam.

 

[Bismillah]

since many Muslims don't accept any hadith, let alone this specific one?

I am not sure what you are implying but it is the general consensus that the Hadith and Sunnah are inviolable part of Islam, without which huge portions of our faith would be unavailable to us.

Secondly there are more than 18 different accounts of authentic Hadith condemning bestiality.

 

[Skwim]

In all fairness to Eselam, the viewpoint he is espousing is fairly mainstream with all too many Muslims. So are, what is likely the vast majority of Muslims, a bigoted group because they do not share our views of sexuality?

So if I called Christians wrong, sick and disgusting, and practicing the religion is no better than an act of bestiality it would be fine because this is a fairly mainstream opinion of the group I belong to? Truth is, I would most likely be banned for such an insult. And rightly so.

 

[methylatedghosts]

although this was fortold by Prophet Muhamed salallahu alayhi we selam i find it sick that 2 people of the same gender can love each other and ask for 'homo rights' with no sense of shame, not even e little bit. what makes it worse is that people support it, what next, bestiality is ok too?

Excuse me? We are supposed to feel shame for who and what we are? Do you have any idea what it is like, to be ashamed of yourself because you know that there are people in the world who hate you, who despise your very existence, even if they don't know you, only because of who and what you are and were born as? Do you know what it's like, to have people protest your very being in the streets when you want nothing more than the same rights as everyone else? Every day, wishing that you were "normal" because if you were, people wouldn't hate you any more? Every day, there are LGBT people that commit suicide because they see nothing but hatred towards themselves, and so learn to hate themselves.

Who in their right mind would choose that for themselves? Who would want to feel that way? Finally, you realise that no, these people are wrong, this is who you are. This is just as much a part of you as your personality. As your mind. As your soul. You can't change what is. It is not, as you say, sick and disgusting.

What is sick and disgusting is that there are still people who have never seen you before, who have never met you, who believe you shouldn't be happy.

 

[Alceste]

In all fairness to Eselam, the viewpoint he is espousing is fairly mainstream with all too many Muslims. So are, what is likely the vast majority of Muslims, a bigoted group because they do not share our views of sexuality?

"[insert minority here] are morally deficient, repulsive and carry diseases" is not a point of view that is fit for civilized discussion, whatever the cultural or religious background of the commentator.

 

[Penumbra]

whats silly is a man loving a man and a woman living a woman. if i said i wanted an animal beside me in bed or in hospital would anyone oppose me?

Animals are not in a position to consent to anything.

Homosexual relations involve consenting people having sex, and often they love each other as well, just like in some heterosexual pairings.

man made laws change over time, pretty much all the 'western' countries will allow gay/lesbian marriage, man made laws always change with time, always have and always will, i feel sorry for the christians though, they are going to distort the bible even further to include gays and lesbains, too bad it's already started, priests and all recognising gay/lesbian marriages.

OMG, are you serious? do i really need to start?

if it was only silly maybe it would get away with only that, but it is sick, disgusting.

are you serious in asking me that question.

I feel kind of sorry for people that have this much hate. People that are happy and content with their lives don't have this much hate towards other people.

 

[Penumbra]

In all fairness to Eselam, the viewpoint he is espousing is fairly mainstream with all too many Muslims. So are, what is likely the vast majority of Muslims, a bigoted group because they do not share our views of sexuality?

For that subset of people, yes. It meets the definition.

It's not a matter of just not sharing views of sexuality. It's a matter of calling people sick for what they do with other consenting people. And it's a matter of being willing to outlaw what consenting adults do in their bedroom, or being unwilling to allocate the same legal rights for loving pairs.

I find some sexual practices that people do to be rather distasteful, but for me it's as simple as me not doing those things. Problem solved. I don't care if other people do those certain things, and I'm certainly not going to pass laws forbidding those certain things. (And I'm not specifically talking about homosexuality/heterosexuality here. Just in general.)

What rational argument could be put forth concerning homosexuality being something to be hated, called sick, or outlawed? Things like bestiality or sex with minors have reasonable arguments for why they should be outlawed. What is the comparable one for consenting adult homosexuality?

 

[horizon_mj1]

Why is the terminology important?

Well it seems to me every time you hear of people arguing the subject, the only thing that seems to be needed is a refined terminology. I also feel that there should be not shame in this. The very reason why several people disagree is due to the lack of differentiating between the two. Either way a marriage is a marriage, my point is that this is what seems to be on people's minds when the subject is discussed, so why would clearly stating the difference be so offensive?

 

[Bismillah]

Aside from this here is an article about homosexuality in S.A

The Kingdom in the Closet - Magazine - The Atlantic

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Progress! :yes: