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More than one God in the OT?

Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image.

Ecclesiastes 12:1
Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth.

Isaiah 54:5
For your husbands are your Makers, Whose name is Yahweh of armies.

In most Bible translations the singular form is used, but this is not correct, the words "creators, husbands, makers" in the respective verses are plural in Hebrew.

Now some would say that it is "pluralis excellentiae" or "Royal we", but if that were really the case, why don't we see this with the kings in the Bible? I have looked, not one king, Jewish or Gentile, used this kind of speech in the Bible, all kings speak about themselves in the singular.

Am I saying that there is more than one God? No, but I believe the Bible teaches one God who is a unity in himself.
 
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Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
And as far as I know, "pluralis excellentiae" and "royal we" originated in the Greek world. So why should God speak like the pagans? I also find this way of speaking very weird. That's not how God talks.
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Teritos said:
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image.

Ecclesiastes 12:1
Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth.

Isaiah 54:5
For your husbands are your Makers, Whose name is Yahweh of armies.

In most Bible translations the singular form is used, but this is not correct, the words "creators, husbands, makers" in the respective verses are plural in Hebrew.

Now some would say that it is "pluralis excellentiae" or "Royal we", but if that were really the case, why don't we see this with the kings in the Bible? I have looked, not one king, Jewish or Gentile, used this kind of speech in the Bible, all kings speak about themselves in the singular.

Am I saying that there is more than one God? No, but I believe the Bible teaches one God who is a unity in himself.
Click to expand...
The Israelites were an offshoot of the Canaanites. Consequently they adopted several of the Canaanite gods, like El, Yahweh, Baal and Asherah who was Yahweh's wife. later the Israelites performed a divorce for Yahweh and got rid of Asherah--demonstrating that the Jewish religion is a completely man-made institution. God had nothing to do with it.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Teritos said:
I believe the Bible teaches one God who is a unity in himself.
Click to expand...
What in the world does this even mean? Unity implies being together with someone or something. It is a meaningless word when used in reference to just one individual.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
The Israelites were an offshoot of the Canaanites. Consequently they adopted several of the Canaanite gods, like El, Yahweh, Baal and Asherah who was Yahweh's wife. later the Israelites performed a divorce for Yahweh and got rid of Asherah--demonstrating that the Jewish religion is a completely man-made institution. God had nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...
There are similarities with Canaanite paganism because the Israelites lived there for a long time. This is nothing unusual. But the Bible is certainly the truth. Only God could have written this book through his breath.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
Katzpur said:
What in the world does this even mean? Unity implies being together with someone or something. It is a meaningless word when used in reference to just one individual.
Click to expand...
God is a being who possesses within himself many different attributes, which are apparently personified according to Proverbs 8.

Just because it's hard to understand doesn't mean it's wrong.
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Teritos said:
There are similarities with Canaanite paganism because the Israelites lived there for a long time. This is nothing unusual. But the Bible is certainly the truth. Only God could have written this book through his breath.
Click to expand...
How can Yahweh be the true God when he was invented by the Canaanites, a pagan religion?
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Heyo

Heyo

Veteran Member
Teritos said:
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image.

Ecclesiastes 12:1
Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth.

Isaiah 54:5
For your husbands are your Makers, Whose name is Yahweh of armies.

In most Bible translations the singular form is used, but this is not correct, the words "creators, husbands, makers" in the respective verses are plural in Hebrew.

Now some would say that it is "pluralis excellentiae" or "Royal we", but if that were really the case, why don't we see this with the kings in the Bible? I have looked, not one king, Jewish or Gentile, used this kind of speech in the Bible, all kings speak about themselves in the singular.

Am I saying that there is more than one God? No, but I believe the Bible teaches one God who is a unity in himself.
Click to expand...
Those aren't the only examples. There are many gods in the OT, named and attributed to the peoples. For the longest time YHVH was the god of the Israelites only. They recognized other gods like Baal and Moloch but wouldn't worship them. Monotheism is a late change in the Abrahamic religions and even so editors and translators tried to ret-con scripture they didn't succeed in eliminating the references to other gods.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Out of curiosity, how would you compare your expertise in Biblical Hebrew to the likes of Robert Alter, Richard Elliott Friedman, Everett Fox, and Nahun Sarna?
Click to expand...

The Hebrew is "Creators," plural, implying the plurality of persons, as in Ge 1:26; so Hebrew, "Makers" (Isa 54:5).
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

For thy Maker is thine husband - Both these words, 'maker' and 'husband,' in the Hebrew are in the plural number.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible

...for thou hast a Husband, namely, thy Maker. The Hebrew has both words in the plural...
Pulpit Commentary

...thy husband is thy Maker: both nouns are in the plural...
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

We have “thy Maker” in the plural
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The word for Creator is in the plural number.
MacLaren's Expositions
 
Kooky

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
SeekingAllTruth said:
The Israelites were an offshoot of the Canaanites. Consequently they adopted several of the Canaanite gods, like El, Yahweh, Baal and Asherah who was Yahweh's wife. later the Israelites performed a divorce for Yahweh and got rid of Asherah--demonstrating that the Jewish religion is a completely man-made institution. God had nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...
I mean, all religion is a man-made institution. There are no religions growing in nature, after all.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Kooky

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Heyo said:
Those aren't the only examples. There are many gods in the OT, named and attributed to the peoples. For the longest time YHVH was the god of the Israelites only. They recognized other gods like Baal and Moloch but wouldn't worship them. Monotheism is a late change in the Abrahamic religions and even so editors and translators tried to ret-con scripture they didn't succeed in eliminating the references to other gods.
Click to expand...
I don't really think that's what was going on. Recall that apart from a few fragments that may be dated earlier, the Hebrew Bible in its written form did not take shape until the Babylonian exile. I think the transition towards henotheistic and, later, monotheistic Judaism was already fairly complete by that time.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Teritos said:
God is a being who possesses within himself many different attributes, which are apparently personified according to Proverbs 8.

Just because it's hard to understand doesn't mean it's wrong.
Click to expand...
Everyone has different attributes. That has nothing whatsoever to do with unity. You are making understanding God a lot more complicated than it has to be.
 
Heyo

Heyo

Veteran Member
Kooky said:
I don't really think that's what was going on. Recall that apart from a few fragments that may be dated earlier, the Hebrew Bible in its written form did not take shape until the Babylonian exile. I think the transition towards henotheistic and, later, monotheistic Judaism was already fairly complete by that time.
Click to expand...
I'm in no way an expert, I haven't even read that hole damn thing but the fact that references to other gods are so abundant is an indicator that henotheism was the prevalent view in the 6th century BC and that the shift to monotheism wasn't complete in the 3rd century when the Tanach was compiled.
Though it seems that the Christians were monotheistic from the get-go, so the switch must have been completed by the 1st century.
 
Teritos

Teritos

Active Member
Katzpur said:
Everyone has different attributes. That has nothing whatsoever to do with unity. You are making understanding God a lot more complicated than it has to be.
Click to expand...
God is the most complicated and complex being there is. We cannot understand God, we cannot even understand that which we see, so how can we understand the being of God that we do not see? Read the Bible and you will understand.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Teritos said:
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image.

Ecclesiastes 12:1
Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth.

Isaiah 54:5
For your husbands are your Makers, Whose name is Yahweh of armies.

In most Bible translations the singular form is used, but this is not correct, the words "creators, husbands, makers" in the respective verses are plural in Hebrew.

Now some would say that it is "pluralis excellentiae" or "Royal we", but if that were really the case, why don't we see this with the kings in the Bible? I have looked, not one king, Jewish or Gentile, used this kind of speech in the Bible, all kings speak about themselves in the singular.

Am I saying that there is more than one God? No, but I believe the Bible teaches one God who is a unity in himself.
Click to expand...

With Genesis, I remember years ago on RF one Jew said it is common in Hebrew language to use "us/we." I'm just assuming that Hebrew doesn't have different pronouns (I don't think??).

My question is why mix up translators choice in words and the context and message in which the chapter implies??
 
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