More than one God in the OT?

[Left Coast]

"When the Most High apportioned the nations,
when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the gods"

Deuteronomy 32:8

"God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:"

Psalm 82:1

 

[darkskies]

What in the world does this even mean? Unity implies being together with someone or something. It is a meaningless word when used in reference to just one individual.

"Unity" is also a word meaning "one", related to a "unit".

 

[Rival]

"When the Most High apportioned the nations,
when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the gods"

Not sure where this comes from. Here's what the Chabad one says,

When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.

"God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:"

Psalm 82:1

Also here it says,

A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image.

Ecclesiastes 12:1
Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth.

Isaiah 54:5
For your husbands are your Makers, Whose name is Yahweh of armies.

In most Bible translations the singular form is used, but this is not correct, the words "creators, husbands, makers" in the respective verses are plural in Hebrew.

Now some would say that it is "pluralis excellentiae" or "Royal we", but if that were really the case, why don't we see this with the kings in the Bible? I have looked, not one king, Jewish or Gentile, used this kind of speech in the Bible, all kings speak about themselves in the singular.

Am I saying that there is more than one God? No, but I believe the Bible teaches one God who is a unity in himself.

I see this talks of all the Messengers.

The Tablet of the Universe, to me explains these verses.

Tablet of the Universe

The Opening passage of that Table explains the 'We' aspect of God.

"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification.... "

To me it explains all of God's Messengers and how they are from the One same source, it also show that the Holy Spirit itself is Created of God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And as far as I know, "pluralis excellentiae" and "royal we" originated in the Greek world. So why should God speak like the pagans? I also find this way of speaking very weird. That's not how God talks.

Because it is God that gave all the Messengers, all the Names of the Messengers and all the Messages throughout time.

The First and the Last contains all the Names of God, Christ is all the Names and all the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A unity without division...

A body, a well ordered system.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Those aren't the only examples. There are many gods in the OT, named and attributed to the peoples. For the longest time YHVH was the god of the Israelites only. They recognized other gods like Baal and Moloch but wouldn't worship them. Monotheism is a late change in the Abrahamic religions and even so editors and translators tried to ret-con scripture they didn't succeed in eliminating the references to other gods.

Or maybe they saw the One God in all Names and thus did not need to worship a name, but only the Nameless.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Everyone has different attributes. That has nothing whatsoever to do with unity. You are making understanding God a lot more complicated than it has to be.

The attributes are our unity. The more we foster, the more we see that potential in all others.

The less we strive to obtain the attributes, the more we find are missing in others.

God is a sum of all the attributes, which are displayed in this world by the 'Self of God', the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

God is the most complicated and complex being there is. We cannot understand God, we cannot even understand that which we see, so how can we understand the being of God that we do not see? Read the Bible and you will understand.

God is the Most Great Spirit.

The Messengers are the 'Self of God' in this world, but given by the Most Great Spirit.

All the Messengers are created from the Holy Spirit. This is the meaning of the virgin birth metephor given in the Bible.

This is a great topic, happy to get into the finer detail, there is much offered on this topic now.

Regards Tony

 

[Left Coast]

Not sure where this comes from. Here's what the Chabad one says,

When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.

Hebrew Henotheism

"The ninth century Masoretic text replaces "sons of God" with "sons of Israel," which some modern English versions follow. It does look like the Masoretes changed the text so as to avoid dangerous polytheistic implications. Furthermore, "Son of Israel" makes absolutely no sense in Deut. 32:8. The people of Israel were Yahweh's "portion" while the sons of God "were divine beings or angels to whom God had delegated authority over the nations. Their existence is not denied but rather accommodated to the overall authority of Yahweh to whom they are subservient."

Also here it says,

A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.

The word in Hebrew is elohim, from what I can see.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

There are similarities with Canaanite paganism because the Israelites lived there for a long time. This is nothing unusual. But the Bible is certainly the truth. Only God could have written this book through his breath.

Sorry, but there is nothin in the Christian Bible that couldn't have been written by you or me. From R. G. Ingersoll on the subject of what a such a book of divine origin should be like:

· It should be a book that no man -- no number of men -- could produce.
· It should contain the perfection of philosophy.
· It should perfectly accord with every fact in nature.
· There should be no mistakes in astronomy, geology, or as to any subject or science.
· Its morality should be the highest, the purest.
· Its laws and regulations for the control of conduct should be just, wise, perfect, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of the ends desired.
· It should contain nothing calculated to make man cruel, revengeful, vindictive or infamous.
· It should be filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy and the spirit of liberty.
· It should be opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to ignorance, credulity and superstition.
· It should develop the brain and civilize the heart.
· It should satisfy the heart and brain of the best and wisest.

 

[Rival]

@Left Coast
It is Elohim, yes, but this word is often used to mean judges, gods, lords etc. It denotes power, essentially. It seems more of a context thing.

 

[Left Coast]

@Left Coast
It is Elohim, yes, but this word is often used to mean judges, gods, lords etc. It denotes power, essentially. It seems more of a context thing.

Sefaria's translation appears to agree the reference of the verse is not to human judges, but rather closer to "gods."

מִזְמ֗וֹר לְאָ֫סָ֥ף אֱ‍ֽלֹהִ֗ים נִצָּ֥ב בַּעֲדַת־אֵ֑ל בְּקֶ֖רֶב אֱלֹהִ֣ים יִשְׁפֹּֽט׃ A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the divine assembly; among the divine beings He pronounces judgment.

Psalms 82

 

[Rival]

Sefaria's translation appears to agree the reference of the verse is not to human judges, but rather closer to "gods."

מִזְמ֗וֹר לְאָ֫סָ֥ף אֱ‍ֽלֹהִ֗ים נִצָּ֥ב בַּעֲדַת־אֵ֑ל בְּקֶ֖רֶב אֱלֹהִ֣ים יִשְׁפֹּֽט׃ A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the divine assembly; among the divine beings He pronounces judgment.

Psalms 82

My ArtScroll interlinear has 'judges', as has my Koren.

Guess it's just one of those things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not sure where this comes from. Here's what the Chabad one says,

When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.

Also here it says,

A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.

To me this is showing that all God's Mesengers are sent to fulfil a specific task to a specific people, yet they are all in reality the children of Isreal. That we are judged by the Message given, by God. That is why every Messenger has brought a 'Judgement Day'.

To me this is why a Jew is so blessed, they are always part of the Centre of God's Revelations.

Then God has promised a day when we would see them all as One in the Most Great Name of the One God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry, but there is nothin in the Christian Bible that couldn't have been written by you or me. From R. G. Ingersoll on the subject of what a such a book of divine origin should be like:

The challenge to produce such a book is given, if one is not to speak falsely. The Qur'an also gives the opportunity of that challenge, as does Baha'u'llah.

So go ahead, produce a book such as the new testament, if it is that easy.

Who the heck is R. G. Ingersoll? Therin lays the difference.

Regards Tony

 

[Left Coast]

My ArtScroll interlinear has 'judges', as has my Koren.

Guess it's just one of those things.

How do they translate verses 6-7? It would be weird for this to be a reference to humans:

אֲ‍ֽנִי־אָ֭מַרְתִּי אֱלֹהִ֣ים אַתֶּ֑ם וּבְנֵ֖י עֶלְי֣וֹן כֻּלְּכֶֽם׃ I had taken you for divine beings, sons of the Most High, all of you;

אָ֭כֵן כְּאָדָ֣ם תְּמוּת֑וּן וּכְאַחַ֖ד הַשָּׂרִ֣ים תִּפֹּֽלוּ׃ but you shall die as men do, fall like any prince.

 

[Kenny]

How can Yahweh be the true God when he was invented by the Canaanites, a pagan religion?

Because He wasn't. Abraham left to Canaanites religion to follow YHWH

 

[Rival]

How do they translate verses 6-7? It would be weird for this to be a reference to humans:

אֲ‍ֽנִי־אָ֭מַרְתִּי אֱלֹהִ֣ים אַתֶּ֑ם וּבְנֵ֖י עֶלְי֣וֹן כֻּלְּכֶֽם׃ I had taken you for divine beings, sons of the Most High, all of you;

אָ֭כֵן כְּאָדָ֣ם תְּמוּת֑וּן וּכְאַחַ֖ד הַשָּׂרִ֣ים תִּפֹּֽלוּ׃ but you shall die as men do, fall like any prince.

ArtScroll,

'I said "You are angelic, sons of the Most High are you all." But like men you shall die, and like one of the princes you shall fall.'

Koren,

'I had said, You are angels, all of you sons of the Most High; nevertheless, you shall die like a man, and fall as one man, O Princes.'

Chabad,

I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High." Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.


Seems slightly forced to me. I've never been the biggest fan of AS's translations especially.

 

[Left Coast]

ArtScroll,

'I said "You are angelic, sons of the Most High are you all." But like men you shall die, and like one of the princes you shall fall.'

Koren,

'I had said, You are angels, all of you sons of the Most High; nevertheless, you shall die like a man, and fall as one man, O Princes.'

Chabad,

I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High." Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.


Seems slightly forced to me. I've never been the biggest fan of AS's translations especially.

Indeed, seems suspect that they would translate the term differently in two different places in the same psalm.