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Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage

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suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I don't think God really cares what unbelievers do...do you? He has no use for them so why should he care if they have no morals?

He told us to "let the dead bury their dead".......those not "alive" (spiritually dead) as far as God is concerned are not worthy of his attention. They have no use for God...so it works both ways. Seems fair to me. :rolleyes:

So you know what God thinks, cares about and wants. You basically sound like his confidant from how you dscribe it...

Maybe you should sign yourself up to a position similar to the pope for your religion. I think you've passed the requirements given your intimate knowledge of God's volitions.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
So you know what God thinks, cares about and wants. You basically sound like his confidant from how you dscribe it...

I am only repeating what is contained in scripture. Have you ever read the Bible? God tells us about himself and what he requires of us. It isn't a secret.

Maybe you should sign yourself up to a position similar to the pope for your religion. I think you've passed the requirements given your intimate knowledge of God's volitions.

I have no desire to do anything other than what I am doing...delivering a point of view. If you don't like it, there is nothing I can do about that. I know the God I worship...and he does not approve of sexual sin in any form, same sex or not.
Is there something wrong with telling the truth?

This is a religious debate forum after all, so I am presenting an opposing Biblical argument.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
You do realize that God performed the first marriage in Eden when he brought the woman to the man. I don't think we can go back further than that. Marriage is God's arrangement, regardless of what man has or has not done with it culturally down through the ages.
Actually he didn't. I would like to see biblical evidence that they were married by god. Second I would like to see any evidence that there was a garden of Eden, Adam, Eve or god. Even Jews view this story as non-literal story. There is no evidence that Judaic tradition has influenced anyone other than the nations with Judaic roots.
In Israel all a man had to do to be married was to make arrangement with the bride's parents, and take his bride home. A betrothed couple were considered married but not until he took his bride to their new residence or to the home of his father was the marriage consummated. This is why Joseph was going to "divorce" Mary when he was not yet married to her.

When the groom was taking his beautifully adorned bride home, the route was lined with well-wishers and that was all there was to it. Some who had means would hold a marriage feast to mark the occasion. But Mary and Joseph were poor so their marriage was a quiet affair apparently.
This isn't really relevant.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I am only repeating what is contained in scripture. Have you ever read the Bible? God tells us about himself and what he requires of us. It isn't a secret..
No no no. You have it all wrong. You need to read the Tanakh. That is god's true word. Oh wait....never mind its actually the Koran. Have you ever read the Vedas? They clearly describe the nature of god. The book of Mormon is the final and truest truth of god to ever be revealed....wait...no its the book of Scientology. Or was it the Wiccan creed? Satanic bible? Hmm....seems like there is an awful lot of books competing with the bible that seem to have at least equal validity in their claim to knowledge of god....I don't know how to figure out which one is the right one. Currently I'm coasting on "none of them".
 

Pudding

Well-Known Member
A person is certain that his religion's law is absolutely right, so he try to legislating his religion law to be the universal law for everyone must to follow.

Which religion law is most superior and should be legislating to be the universal law for everyone must to follow?
 
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fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I don't think God really cares what unbelievers do...do you? He has no use for them so why should he care if they have no morals?

He told us to "let the dead bury their dead".......those not "alive" (spiritually dead) as far as God is concerned are not worthy of his attention. They have no use for God...so it works both ways. Seems fair to me. :rolleyes:
So therefore it makes no sense to impose bans on same sex marriage. If God does not care there is no reason to ban it.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You do realize that God performed the first marriage in Eden when he brought the woman to the man. I don't think we can go back further than that. Marriage is God's arrangement, regardless of what man has or has not done with it culturally down through the ages.

In Israel all a man had to do to be married was to make arrangement with the bride's parents, and take his bride home. A betrothed couple were considered married but not until he took his bride to their new residence or to the home of his father was the marriage consummated. This is why Joseph was going to "divorce" Mary when he was not yet married to her.

When the groom was taking his beautifully adorned bride home, the route was lined with well-wishers and that was all there was to it. Some who had means would hold a marriage feast to mark the occasion. But Mary and Joseph were poor so their marriage was a quiet affair apparently.

What? God didn't perform any marriage. It just tells us that the other animals were not compatible, - and I'm guessing God didn't marry them to Adam and then divorce each of them until Eve. There are works (The Zohar and Talmud for instanced,) about Adam having sex with each animal trying to find a mate.

Trying to say there was marriage in extremely ancient times is ridiculous.

PS. Just because the Bible has a male and female having sex to create more humans, does not in any way tell us that is the only sex allowed. Obviously it wasn't, if Adam was having sex with the other animals. It is merely a story showing that male and female are needed for procreation of humans, - and that is NOT a condemnation of homosexual unions, or marriage.

*
 
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suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I am only repeating what is contained in scripture. Have you ever read the Bible? God tells us about himself and what he requires of us. It isn't a secret.



I have no desire to do anything other than what I am doing...delivering a point of view. If you don't like it, there is nothing I can do about that. I know the God I worship...and he does not approve of sexual sin in any form, same sex or not.
Is there something wrong with telling the truth?

This is a religious debate forum after all, so I am presenting an opposing Biblical argument.

My point to you is that the assertion of God's will is an interpretation of the bible because there are also religious people that would disagree with you. How would you explain this inconsistency among religion? Someone has to be wrong if the source of such ideals is the same and basically from the bible.

Your point of view is your point of view but it is a strong arm tactic to assert to others what societal rules and ethics should be the name of a higher being. A higher being that no one can prove truly exists. It then becomes quite coercive to impose an imaginary all powerful will on everyone but yourself.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Actually he didn't. I would like to see biblical evidence that they were married by god.

"So Jehovah God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And Jehovah God built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman, and he brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man she was taken.” 24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife; yet they were not ashamed." (Gen 2:21-25)

That is all the evidence I need. I don't expect that it will mean much to you but you did ask for "biblical evidence". :)

Second I would like to see any evidence that there was a garden of Eden, Adam, Eve or god. Even Jews view this story as non-literal story. There is no evidence that Judaic tradition has influenced anyone other than the nations with Judaic roots.

Since Jesus spoke about the first man and woman, I have no reason to believe that they were fictitious.

"Matthew 19:4-6 "In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

I believe that these words still form part of some people's marriage vows.

His expression, "have you not read" is obviously referring to the Hebrew Scriptures which is where the account about Adam and his wife are recorded. Since God is the one who "yokes together" two people who are viewed by him as "one flesh", the yoking is not two people of the same sex. Males and females are anatomically "made" for each other. Couples of the same sex are not. So sexual acts between these are not "natural" but perverted. (unnatural) The intent of the sexual act between a man and his wife was to produce children. The fact that it was pleasurable, was a bonus, not the exclusive reason to engage in it.

This isn't really relevant.

It is relevant because getting married was not always a formal ceremony. God did not perform a marriage ceremony with Adam and Eve.....he simply brought her to the man.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
No no no. You have it all wrong. You need to read the Tanakh. That is god's true word. Oh wait....never mind its actually the Koran. Have you ever read the Vedas? They clearly describe the nature of god. The book of Mormon is the final and truest truth of god to ever be revealed....wait...no its the book of Scientology. Or was it the Wiccan creed? Satanic bible? Hmm....seems like there is an awful lot of books competing with the bible that seem to have at least equal validity in their claim to knowledge of god....I don't know how to figure out which one is the right one. Currently I'm coasting on "none of them".

We are all free to make our own choices about those works, for our own reasons......or to reject all of them as you have done.

Since God is the one who "draws" people to his son, (John 6:44) by reading their hearts, (discerning their thoughts and attitudes) that eliminates those who want to do things their way or who want to ditch any notion of a Creator altogether. These ones will not even get a foot in the door. They won't know a thing until it's too late....just like the people of Noah's day. (Matt24:36-39)

So if there is a God and the Bible is correct, that we will each account to him for the life we have chosen to live, then it would be remiss of him not to warn us about that, wouldn't you say? He has sent his messengers out with that warning, but he already knows that the majority will not listen. But they are given opportunity none the less.

God is not forcing any of us to do anything, but he will demand an accounting. Have you thought about what that might mean for you, should the Bible actually be a work inspired by him? Dismiss it as nonsense if you want to.....I'm just putting it out there.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
We are all free to make our own choices about those works, for our own reasons......or to reject all of them as you have done.

So you support marriage equality?
I would be more than happy if you did, and we both agreed to let God deal with the sinners...
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
So therefore it makes no sense to impose bans on same sex marriage. If God does not care there is no reason to ban it.

I don't recall any JW's wishing to ban it legally. We have no interest in what unbelievers do in private...in fact it's better not to know. Christians do not need governments to legislate their behavior or anyone else's. Nothing escapes the Creator's notice and he is the one who will demand an accounting for all human activity.....including all immoral conduct as well as the bloodshed of political or religious wars. No one gets away with anything, at the end of the day.

There are things that are perfectly legal that are abused and lead to much unnecessary suffering in this world. These are the things that Christians naturally avoid. They do not need humans to legislate what is their chosen behavior. They find these things to be morally repugnant because they are taught by Christ to distinguish between right and wrong. This law in written on hearts, not in human legislation.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
My point to you is that the assertion of God's will is an interpretation of the bible because there are also religious people that would disagree with you. How would you explain this inconsistency among religion? Someone has to be wrong if the source of such ideals is the same and basically from the bible.

Your point of view is your point of view but it is a strong arm tactic to assert to others what societal rules and ethics should be the name of a higher being. A higher being that no one can prove truly exists. It then becomes quite coercive to impose an imaginary all powerful will on everyone but yourself.

Telling the truth is a strong arm tactic? o_O

Well, if I was aware that a natural disaster was approaching and I knew that many of my neighbors were unaware of its approach, what sort of neighbor would I be to pack up and move to safety without warning them? Is this what you think a good Christian should do? I can't make people take a scrap of notice of what I say, but I have fulfilled my obligation to them in sounding the warning....their life is in their own hands if they chose to stay where they are. Who can they blame when the storm starts tearing their houses apart?

We are all at the mercy of our own choices. We should make them informed ones at least.

Because, believe me....a 'storm' is coming. No one will escape it.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
So you support marriage equality?

What the world decides to do about how they wish to live their lives, is none of my business.
I am no part of that world. (John 15:18, 19)

I would be more than happy if you did, and we both agreed to let God deal with the sinners...

That is what I have always thought......except that God has assigned us a work, much like an emergency service worker going house to house with a warning and a recommendation for a place of safety. People are free to ignore the warning, but we have to sound it none the less. (Matt 24:14) Their response is their choice, not mine....not God's.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
"So Jehovah God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And Jehovah God built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman, and he brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man she was taken.” 24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife; yet they were not ashamed." (Gen 2:21-25)

That is all the evidence I need. I don't expect that it will mean much to you but you did ask for "biblical evidence". :)

ING - That doesn't say anything about marriage. Nor does it say two of the same can't come together. Nor is it the actual story - which says they were together - and split into two parts, - not woman made from a rib. You can read about this in Rabbinical literature concerning that text. It isn't "wife" either, - it is "woman."


Since Jesus spoke about the first man and woman, I have no reason to believe that they were fictitious.

ING - The dates prove it fictitious.


"Matthew 19:4-6 "In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

I believe that these words still form part of some people's marriage vows.

ING - So what! Again it says NOTHING about heterosexual marriage, or about homosexual marriage being wrong. Nor again - is it wife. It is woman.



His expression, "have you not read" is obviously referring to the Hebrew Scriptures which is where the account about Adam and his wife are recorded. Since God is the one who "yokes together" two people who are viewed by him as "one flesh", the yoking is not two people of the same sex. Males and females are anatomically "made" for each other. Couples of the same sex are not. So sexual acts between these are not "natural" but perverted. (unnatural) The intent of the sexual act between a man and his wife were intended to produce children. The fact that it was pleasurable, was a bonus, not the exclusive reason to engage in it.

ING - Again - no marriage is mentioned. No Gay marriage is forbidden. It is only talking about procreation needing a male and female. Nothing you have posted makes homosexuality unnatural, or perverted.


It is relevant because getting married was not always a formal ceremony. God did not perform a marriage ceremony with Adam and Eve.....he simply brought her to the man.

EXPAND HIS -

Indeed - NO MARRIAGE, - and no condemning of homosexual marriage. Such bull is just homophobia.

*
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The standard for marriage in a Christian's life has nothing to do with the laws of the land......marriage is God's arrangement....period. If we have a "marriage" that is not recognized by God...then we have no marriage at all, regardless of what any human law says.
When people talk about legalizing or banning same-sex marriage, they're talking about the laws of the land and nothing else. If the laws of the land don't matter to you, then leave them to the people who do care about them. If you want, you can cluck disapprovingly from the sidelines and say "that's not REAL marriage" to your heart's content... as long as you don't insist on hurting people with the law.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Telling the truth is a strong arm tactic? o_O

Well, if I was aware that a natural disaster was approaching and I knew that many of my neighbors were unaware of its approach, what sort of neighbor would I be to pack up and move to safety without warning them? Is this what you think a good Christian should do? I can't make people take a scrap of notice of what I say, but I have fulfilled my obligation to them in sounding the warning....their life is in their own hands if they chose to stay where they are. Who can they blame when the storm starts tearing their houses apart?

We are all at the mercy of our own choices. We should make them informed ones at least.

Because, believe me....a 'storm' is coming. No one will escape it.

I compare your method to parents behaving their children with symbolic concepts like Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the boogie man. If you're "good" then Santa Claus will give you a present, if you're "bad" then no present. This is reinforcement with a reward. On the extreme end, parents can reinforce with fear by saying the boogie man can get you if you don't behave.

If you want the world to believe you and agree with you then I suggest you prove your premises beyond simply suggesting it. What you consider truths are conjectures and hearsay.

How about we end this respectfully and simply disagree with each other.

Peace be with you.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I compare your method to parents behaving their children with symbolic concepts like Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the boogie man. If you're "good" then Santa Claus will give you a present, if you're "bad" then no present. This is reinforcement with a reward. On the extreme end, parents can reinforce with fear by saying the boogie man can get you if you don't behave.

If you want the world to believe you and agree with you then I suggest you prove your premises beyond simply suggesting it. What you consider truths are conjectures and hearsay.

How about we end this respectfully and simply disagree with each other.

Peace be with you.

Posting a point of view fully backed by scripture is what "religious debates" are all about. Everyone is free to make up their own mind about this issue. But both sides present their case......like it or not...take it or leave it.

I do not require people to agree with me...I am simply posting what is in the Bible....though not everyone uses the same Bible apparently.

Sexual sin was covered extensively in Israel's law. (Lev 18) Read them for yourself.

Leviticus 18:22 (RY: iv, LY: vii) “‘You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination." (CJB)

The seed of life was never designed to be deposited in the body's garbage disposal. That is an abomination.
Sexual perversion is against nature.

Those genetically disposed to be sexually attracted to persons of the same gender have a dilemma on their hands.....but only if they choose to become Christians. You cannot be a Christian AND a practicing homosexual. You have to choose to be one or the other. You can try to have your cake and eat it too but you will only be fooling yourself in the long run. (Heb 4:13)

Romans 1:26-28...."This is why God has given them up to degrading passions; so that their women exchange natural sexual relations for unnatural; and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burn with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion. In other words, since they have not considered God worth knowing, God has given them up to worthless ways of thinking; so that they do improper things." (CJB)

There is no scriptural way to get around this. "Worthless ways of thinking" result when humans try to justify their unnatural sexual appetites to God. He will accept no excuses.

Can you be gay and a Christian?......YES! But you cannot practise what God condemns. Pedophiles are in the same category....they too have unnatural sexual appetites, but no one is suggesting that they be given free reign to have sex with young children.....are they?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
When people talk about legalizing or banning same-sex marriage, they're talking about the laws of the land and nothing else. If the laws of the land don't matter to you, then leave them to the people who do care about them. If you want, you can cluck disapprovingly from the sidelines and say "that's not REAL marriage" to your heart's content... as long as you don't insist on hurting people with the law.

Again, I have an obligation to explain that God has standards that humans are not free to break. Just because there is a law of the land to say otherwise, counts for nothing with God. He doesn't make the laws of the land...humans do.
 
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