Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage

[Serenity7855]

So when it suits your purposes,

That sound like you are suggesting that I am acting inappropriately.

Mosaic law is god's own commandment ("God says anal sex is sinful!"); but when you find yourself having to defend the indefensible, it's all down to "the mentality of people of those times" and not god at all.

You are setting a premise that slavery is indefensible, even though I have provided three separate articles that show that this kind of slavery was not the same as we saw in Southern America. That leaves a question mark over the morality of this kind of slavery, where many sold themselves into slavery or paid off a debt by it. Therefore, one situations is clearly immoral whereas the other is questionable. They are not the same so they cannot be treated the same, as you are trying to do. Just to bolster my opinion, there is a Mosaic Law that says that man should not lay with man as he would a woman, however, there is no Mosaic Law that forbids slavery, which suggests that it was acceptable to the slaves and their owners at that time.

 

[johnhanks]

You are setting a premise that slavery is indefensible, even though I have provided three separate articles that show that this kind of slavery was not the same as we saw in Southern America.

As other posters have pointed out, this does not make it acceptable. "Others have done the same thing but they did it worse" is a pretty feeble defence.

Just to bolster my opinion, there is a Mosaic Law that says that man should not lay with man as he would a woman, however, there is no Mosaic Law that forbids slavery, which suggests that it was acceptable to the slaves and their owners at that time.

Acceptable to the owners, I have no doubt; I do, however, doubt that enslaved foreigners, or daughters sold into slavery, would have agreed, had they been granted a say in the matter.

More interesting, however, is your suggestion that what is and is not to be found in Mosaic law reflects what was acceptable to the people it governed. With this, of course, I concur, as it was entirely a human construct: as often happens, the society that evolved it wrote it up as divine mandate to render it inviolable.

 

[Prestor John]

Or...

3) His own kid will be gay, and his attitude will drive the kid to estrangement from his father at best or suicide at worst.

Just because a person has homosexual tendencies, that does not mean they are homosexual or "gay". It is only after they act on those tendencies have they committed sin.

Would you mind explaining what my "attitude" is? And how would that attitude cause my son to estrange himself from me?

You assume to know a lot about me from nothing.

 

[Serenity7855]

I like to answer the entity of the posts I get but have to cut some short here as I have a headache that is making me tired and unable to think properly. Sorry about that. If they are important to you just repost them and I will answer them later.

How did I know that?

How did you know that? Do I give my age away in my posts.

What’s the other side to this story?

You said "the way that some Christians or some Muslims do when it comes to gay people. That behavior serves to perpetuate institutional or structural violence." The other side of the story is that not all homosexuals are angels and can be equally as badly behaved.

I don’t think I’ve insulted you. I try to make a point not to insult people.

Not enough to make me cry.

So if two gay men are in love and want to marry and spend their lives together, and they never have anal sex, they are not committing any sin?

I have two very good friend who I have the greatest respect and admiration for. Both are in their eighties and gay, however, they say that they have never had anal sex. I asked what else they did and the answer was quite surprisingly astounding to me, and perfectly acceptable. Not perverted or weird in anyway. I had never thought of it until he told me, but it changed my opinion on homosexuality. You do not have to have anal sex. There are ways to have a perfectly fulfilling sex life without debasing yourself in sexual sin. I love these two guys, who have been together now for many years, yet they never got married. I believe I will see them, without sin, in the afterlife. If I were gay then I would want to meet someone like them. Really nice and sincere people, in fact, you would not even think that they were gay.

Is oral sex a perversion?

Well, I hope not, just kidding. I don't really know. It is not mentioned in scripture so I guess it is not. Having said that, the dangers of oral sex are on a par with anal sex, so maybe it is. Sorry if I am a bit vague on it but I don't really know and I have never given it much thought or reasoning to be able to give a reasonable coherent answer.

So if two lesbian women have sex with each other, but never have anal sex, they are not being sinful?

Not in my opinion.

Okay, so we agree it is normal, in the sense I described.

Yes

We don’t know precisely what makes someone heterosexual either. Or bisexual. But the idea that sexuality falls along a spectrum is backed up by the fact that when you ask people where they fit, they actually do fall in various places all along the spectrum.

I do not believe that there is a single cause. I think there is a multiplicity of factors, which would explain you spectrum theory.

Sure, you don’t have to act on your feelings but what kind of way is it to live where you can’t be your true self?

Please see my experience with my elderly gay friends

I really have to wonder how you can believe that there has been no improvement on these things for women and other minorities over the last century or so.

I have not taken a survey or walked the street monitoring social behavior, however, I do read the news, research it on the internet with both showing a marked decline in our social interaction and behavior. The world is now totally corrupted. We do not even really know who is running the show. Look at the Belderberg Group, The New World Order, 911 inconsistencies, The Bohemian Grove, John F Kennedy's mysterious magic bullet, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, The federal reserve, capitalism, democracy, logistics exploitation, Iraq the Illuminati and Freemasonry, the Patriot Act, the FDA, the Pharmaceutical industry, and on and on and on. You may say, but they are conspiracy theories, however, there is seldom any smoke without fire.

I think that’s nothing more than the “good old days” syndrome. Most people think things were better in the days when they grew up because everything is better when you’re a kid, free from responsibility and worries (for the most part) and you don’t really know the greater societal issues that are going on around you.

Yes, that is bound to be a factor in ones appraisal of the past, however, we become more objective as we grow older so those factors are taken into consideration.

In the UK in the 1950s, you could be chemically castrated just for being gay. It was either that or go to prison. (Imagine being thrown in prison just for being gay!) That’s what happened to one of the 20th century’s greatest minds - Alan Turing. After probably saving all of our lives breaking codes that nobody else code break during World War II, he ended up taking his own life after he was castrated and humiliated by the government. The physical and psychological effects of the castration were too much for him to live with. Who knows what he could have done had he lived.

That was a dreadfully outrageous affair indeed that doesn't bear thinking about, that human beings could do that to another human being. You would not treat an animal like that. Disgusting and an embarrassment on our society for allowing it to happen.

If you were person of colour in the US in the 1950s (over 100 years after being freed from slavery) you definitely didn’t have it better than you do now. You would be segregated from the white population, forced to go to your own separate schools, washrooms, public transportation, restaurants, drinking fountains and housing (and they were usually much worse conditions than everyone else was offered). Even the military was segregated. You’d be living in a society that viewed you as somehow less human than the rest of them.

Again, I am embarrassed for mankind that they are capable of such behavior. I agree wholeheartedly with you, however, I am not claiming that the 50s were utopias, just that they were more morally astute. No doubt you can see the depth to which sex permeates society. One can no longer turn on the television without finding a program that has sexual undertones. Magazines are filled with stories, photos and features that would shock those of past generations. There is now also the Internet, offering a veritable buffet of perversions. In the world today evil is not so apparent because it has become clandestine in nature. The diseased society is mor cunning, conniving, underhanded and duplicitous. Having said that, our inner cities are rampant with crime and anti social behavior. Elderly people fearing to leave their home in the dark, gang rape, theft, muggings, drug abuse, gang cultures, Police State, Big Brother snooping, Child abuse is escalating, AIDS, police corruption, deception, dishonesty in our government and places of authority, persecution of the sick and afflicted by those who are supposed to care for us, pedophilia on an ever increasing scale, promiscuity among children, rape, murder, an increase in child pregnancies and abortions, a lack in moral values, TV that desensitizes our children and parents, Cyber bullying, voyeurism, Criminal damage. and most importantly, the destruction of the family unit. I know that many of these have always been with us but many are unique to this day and age and the rest have all seen an unprecedented increase, .

Things today sound much better to me.

Even after reading the above? But that is good for you. If you are happy then who can knock you for it. I e

I don’t think science confirms the existence of god(s). And I think anybody can have meaning to life without having to invoke any god(s).

For me, science has all the evidence to indicate the existence of deity. Find tuning, or the anthropic principle, that is, the cosmological principle that theories of the universe are constrained by the necessity to allow human existence, on its own suggest that something was involved in the creation of the universe. biogenesis, that is, the hypothesis that living matter arises only from other living matter, is another area that tell us that something helped to form the universe and mankind, however, I will admit that it is all a little subjective.

It is not God that gives meaning to life is is the continuation of life after we die that give hope and meaning to our existence.

This is what you mean when you say society is falling apart?[/QUOTE]

 

[Prestor John]

Could be this too.

Nothing good can come of it, and I have personal experience. My father is 70 now, and when we were growing up was very outspokenly against homosexuals. I mean this was like the late 70's early 80's when calling people f*gs and qu*ers in public was still considered acceptable.

I didn't know it was wrong, he was my dad and I thought gay people were bad because of it. Later in life of course when I moved out of the house and met gay people, I realized that my dad was just an old-time homophobe like a lot of men his age. I didn't really hold it against the old man, these things are generational.

But my sister pretty much disowned him. She wouldn't talk to him anymore and told him straight out that she was embarrassed by him. This crush him, as you might imagine, and eventually he found his way to a more "enlightened" view of gay people.

All is well now, they reconciled and I think my dad actually became a better person because of it. But it caused a lot of family pain and misery for a long time.

Older people....your kids aren't going to understand the anti-gay thing. All it's going to do is cause you strife. Hold on to it like grim death if you wish, but a better path is to try to come to a modern understanding of the issue.

You speak as if our sexual orientation is what defines people. I don't believe that. I believe it is only a part of who we are.

Bigotry against homosexuals may be "generational", but the homosexuality issue is not. I am not an "older" person and I think you are wrong for trying to claim that our morality should be based on "the times".

Homosexuality is a sin. It has always been a sin and it will forever be a sin. It is a sin because it is contrary to the purposes of God's children both in this life and in eternity.

You know you have to label anyone who is opposed to homosexuality as a "bigot" in order for you to feel justified in rejecting God's Word, but I can assure you that my attitude is anything but.

 

[McBell]

You speak as if our sexual orientation is what defines people. I don't believe that. I believe it is only a part of who we are.

Except you have defined people based on their being homosexual...
Hypocrite much?

Bigotry against homosexuals may be "generational", but the homosexuality issue is not. I am not an "older" person and I think you are wrong for trying to claim that our morality should be based on "the times".

Yet gods morality is based on the times.
Slavery for instance.

Homosexuality is a sin. It has always been a sin and it will forever be a sin. It is a sin because it is contrary to the purposes of God's children both in this life and in eternity.

and?

You know you have to label anyone who is opposed to homosexuality as a "bigot" in order for you to feel justified in rejecting God's Word, but I can assure you that my attitude is anything but.

Play the victim much?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just because a person has homosexual tendencies, that does not mean they are homosexual or "gay". It is only after they act on those tendencies have they committed sin.

What a bizarre way of looking at the world.

"Homosexual" describes an orientation. The orientation is there whether or not a person acts on it.

Would you mind explaining what my "attitude" is?

Disapproving of homosexuality, and by extension, disapproving of homosexual people.

And how would that attitude cause my son to estrange himself from me?

When fathers disapprove of their sons, it tends to cause conflict.

You assume to know a lot about me from nothing.

I just added one option to the list. I didn't say that it was the option that would actually happen. I don't even know whether you have a son.

 

[Prestor John]

This is absolute BULL. You know what they mean. Normal consenting adults.

The word "normal" is very subjective.

I do not consider homosexuality to be "normal". Even speaking statistically, it is not "normal".

How am I to "know what they mean" when they use such subjective language?

Your words try to turn this into a ridiculous slippery-slope argument.

This was not at all a "slippery-slope argument".

I never said that "same-sex marriage" would lead to incestuous marriages.

Someone had claimed that the only prerequisite for marriage had been "two adults", so this gave me an opportunity to better clarify what they meant by that. I asked if this should also apply to incestuous relationships.

Obviously, there is more to marriage than simply being "two adults".

They are equal, and the same.

You could argue that, under the law, "same-sex marriage" and traditional marriage are "equal", but by definition they are not the "same". They are not "exactly similar".

You could say that they are "similar", much like two siblings would be. But they are not the "same" as identical twins would be.

You may want them to be "exactly simiar", but that does not mean that they are. You cannot claim that they are "exactly similar" and remain honest.

They are both just the marriage of two people in love.

Are you advocating that the only prerequisite for marriage is that two people love one another?

If that is what you are claiming, then I could just as easily present my incestuous marriage scenario again.

A father and daughter could love one another. Therefore, by your only prerequisite, it would be perfectly appropriately for the daughter to marry the father when she came of age?

It doesn't matter what some religious groups think about it.

Are you implying that members of "religious groups" are no longer citizens of this country?

If not, then it very much matters what I or any other member of a "religious group" thinks since we live in a Democratic Republic.

LOL! Open your eyes.

My eyes are open and I see Man trying to change what God has decreed. Which they have no authority to do.

This decision affects everyone, not just homosexuals.

You aren't being discriminated against. You can believe any outdated ideas you want to. It is the acting on those ideas that is the problem.

You believe that the religious freedom granted to me by the First Amendment is a "problem"?

Why do you believe that only certain people are free to believe and speak what they want, but others cannot?

How do you judge which should be allowed freedom and which shouldn't?

You are on very thin ice.

What religions don't have the right to do, - is force those outdated ideas onto the rest of the public.

That is true. I don't understand why you are arguing this since no one is arguing otherwise.

Do you believe a church or religion can refuse their services to someone if they believe that person is not worthy of the service?

For instance - you can believe in the Biblical law to - KILL people that work on the Sabbath. But you do NOT have the right to carry that out, or force that archaic law on the rest of us.

The Law has been fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Does the First Amendment ensure a religion's right to petition the government or not?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Homosexuality is a sin. It has always been a sin and it will forever be a sin. It is a sin because it is contrary to the purposes of God's children both in this life and in eternity.

I fully support your right not to commit any act you think is sinful unless you freely consent to it.

The problems happen when people appeal to their notions of "sin" to limit the freedoms of others (e.g. banning same-sex marriage), or when they demand to be exempt from the duties of agreements they freely entered into (e.g. Catholic adoption agencies that want the state to supply them with children and funds but don't want the state's rules about non-discrimination).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Does the First Amendment ensure a religion's right to petition the government or not?

Not.

Under the American system, rights are vested in individuals, not groups. The only rights of a group are the rights of its individual members.

 

[Prestor John]

It's the LDS Church's version of the afterlife. He believes in the Plan of Salvation (another Mormon doctrine) as well as Outer Darkness, spends copious amounts of time apologising for the Church, but he's "not a Mormon".

There is a Hell in the LDS version of the "afterlife".

We just do not believe that that state of existence last forever.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There is a Hell in the LDS version of the "afterlife".

We just do not believe that that state of existence last forever.

I should have been more circumspect. What I meant to say is that in Mormon doctrine Outer Darkness is the part of the post-Judgement afterlife reserved for Satan and those who are most loyal to him.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God has never physically killed a living soul

Lot's wife, the first born in Egypt, Onan, the flood, Sodom, Gomorrah - your god killed a ton of people in the Bible. Even the seven that your "enemy" killed, he did it with god's blessing and encouragement.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

even though I have provided three separate articles that show that this kind of slavery was not the same as we saw in Southern America.

And you've been ignoring the core of the issue, that slavery in America and slavery in the Bible both revolve around owning a human being as a piece of property, stripping them of any and all notions of self-determination, and reducing them to a commodity to be bought, sold, traded, and used.

It has always been a sin and it will forever be a sin.

Give it about 100 years. No one will think it is wrong. Celebrating Christmas used to be considered sinful, but hardly anyone today does.

 

[David1967]

There is a Hell in the LDS version of the "afterlife".

We just do not believe that that state of existence last forever.

I would like to know more about this view of afterlife. Can you recommend any literature?

 

[Serenity7855]

And you've been ignoring the core of the issue, that slavery in America and slavery in the Bible both revolve around owning a human being as a piece of property, stripping them of any and all notions of self-determination, and reducing them to a commodity to be bought, sold, traded, and used.

The only thing they have in common is the name slavery and ownership. I would genuinely like for you to substantiate the rest of your assertion with some kind of evidence, if you do not mind.

Give it about 100 years. No one will think it is wrong. Celebrating Christmas used to be considered sinful, but hardly anyone today does.

Overall, 84 per cent of the world's inhabitants, which it estimated at 6.9 billion, identify with a religion, according to the study entitled 'The Global Religious Landscape' issued by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life on Tuesday. Christianity is the largest faith with 2.2 billion adherents or 31.5 per cent of the world's population. There are 7.4 billion inhabitants on our earth, that leaves just 500 million atheists and agnostics that do not celebrate Christmas and at least 2.2 billion Christians that do.

The reason that it seems like nobody celebrates it now is because almost all major media companies, most politicians and retail company executives and owners are atheists who control what we see and what we don't see. 95% of the worlds wealth belongs to these handful of atheists who control our governments and all media outlets, like the Belderberg Group of billionaires. So, you got it wrong. Christianity will be with us until Jesus Christ returns in all His Glory and majesty and we will be fighting these handful of dictators until He does..

 

[Serenity7855]

Lot's wife, the first born in Egypt, Onan, the flood, Sodom, Gomorrah - your god killed a ton of people in the Bible. Even the seven that your "enemy" killed, he did it with god's blessing and encouragement.

Again, you refer to man and not God. It is physically impossible for My God to take any carnal mans life as he cannot dwell in their presence, and if He did He would cease to be God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Bible neither condemns or condones slavery.

Not only does the Bible condone slavery, it describes God commanding slavery on several occasions.

Do you believe that Christians secretly want to buy a slave, or kill a baby?

Luckily, most Christians are better than their god.

 

[Serenity7855]

Not only does the Bible condone slavery, it describes God commanding slavery on several occasions.

Is that your opinion or can you substantiate it with evidence. Please, do not use scriptures that are Interpretable by prejudice and bias and that you do not believe in anyway. The Bible is entirely fictitious, unless you have faith in God to accept that they are indeed His words. If you don't believe in their authenticity then whatever they say, or whatever I say about them, is pure supposition and balderdash;. They are meaningless to you, therefore, they cannot be used to substantiate any claim that you make about them. How can you use words and sentences from a book that you don't believe in to corroborate your interpretation of those same fictitious words. It is a logical fallacy because you are using a falsehood to verify that same falsehood. Circular reasoning.

Luckily, most Christians are better than their god.

Well yes, of course, we are all better then something that is non-existent.

 

[Serenity7855]

I would like to know more about this view of afterlife. Can you recommend any literature?

I hope you don't mind me answering your post. It see it sat there with no one answering it for you so here is an article from Wiki detailing what happens when we die.The whole ethos of the afterlife is contained within the Plan of Salvation.

Spirit World

The general Christian believe in a spirit world between death and the resurrection. They believe that the "veil of forgetfulness" will be removed before they are judged thereafter, and that the spirits of all of mankind continue to prepare for judgment day and their eventual resurrection where they will receive a reward according to their faith and works. They believe that righteous individuals continue to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Spirit World, teaching others and offering them the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour and follow Heavenly Father's plan.

Final Judgment

Christian believe that the final judgment of mankind will occur after the final resurrection, and that Jesus Christ is ultimately the Judge of all men.

“ He will judge them, 'not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,' those who have lived without law will be judged without law, and those who have a law will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right.

Salvation

Christians believe that the scriptures teach of multiple types or levels of salvation:

• Immortality is explained as a gift freely given to everyone, made possible by Jesus' death and resurrection.[8] The church teaches that "The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form...even as we now are at this time. ...This restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame."
• After everyone has been resurrected, all will be judged by God with Jesus Christ as our advocate. As part of this judgment, each person is assigned to one of three heavenly kingdoms (sometimes called Degrees of Glory): the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Telestial Kingdom. The kingdom within heaven for which each person has qualified is conditional upon acceptance of, and true faith in, Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of mankind - this is demonstrated through baptism and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, including repentance.
• In order to achieve "eternal life", the highest quality and happiest of the degrees of salvation, one must enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

Each level of salvation as explained above relies upon Christ's grace through His infinite atonement, and is conditional upon each person's eventual acceptance of Jesus Christ as their personal Savior from the consequence of sin and spiritual death. Through His physical and spiritual suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross, He makes it possible for each person to be made clean from the metaphorical stains of human imperfections, and justifies and sanctifies each righteous person for admission into the glory that they have merited as they come unto Him with "full purpose of heart."

• Outer Darkness is reserved for those people who, after gaining a full knowledge of the Gospel, willfully deny and contend against the Holy Ghost. (Satan, his followers from the premortal life, and those who were born on earth but chose to become sons of perdition.) These individuals who inherit no glory are called sons of perdition. Although resurrected, and thus immortal, they willfully rebelled and rejected the right to salvation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_of_salvation_(Latter_Day_Saints)