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Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage

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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
It's the LDS Church's version of the afterlife. He believes in the Plan of Salvation (another Mormon doctrine) as well as Outer Darkness, spends copious amounts of time apologising for the Church, but he's "not a Mormon". :rolleyes:

Well yes, with all inductive or deductive reasoning you have to have at least two premises and a proposition. How else can you deduce an argument without them. However, most of those premises originate from the Bible not the BOM

Unlike yourself, I have no embarrassment in being an ex-Mormon. It demonstrates an open mind that welcomes change.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva,
This is baloney in your opinion, right?

Slavery was to be a last resort. Israel was to "remember that you were a slave in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you from there" (Deuteronomy 24:18).

Sometimes, circumstances were such that the laws requiring care for the poor were not enough. In ancient agrarian societies, it was often extremely difficult to provide for oneself and one's family. Many slaves in Old Testament Israel had sold themselves to prevent starvation; others had been sold by their family so the family wouldn't starve.

Some people categorically condemn the Bible because it does not call for the universal abolition of slavery. What they don't understand are the cultural conditions that made slavery a sad necessity. Even so, this was not chattel slavery—masters did not "own" their slaves' humanity; they leased their work. Like divorce and polygamy, slavery was never in God's perfect plan. But, because of sin, for a time and place, slavery was permitted by God, with certain restrictions.

http://www.compellingtruth.org/slavery-Old-Testament.html

How Come the Bible Doesn’t Condemn Slavery?

It is true that the Bible does not formally and explicitly condemn slavery as an institution. So how do we account for this? Just what does the Bible say about slavery? Several important points warrant careful consideration.

  1. The forms of servitude and slavery practiced in a biblical context bear little resemblance to the tyrannical type of slavery found in the American antebellum South and in other modern Western countries. Certain moderate forms of “servitude”—for example, indentured (voluntary) servitude—were considered morally beneficial before God under certain circumstances in the Old Testament. Examples of this are seen in voluntary indenturement in order to earn a living or to learn a trade. It could also include the indenturement of a criminal in order for the offender to render restitution. But in none of these moderate cases, nor even the more extreme case of foreigners captured by the Israelites in war, would the so-called slave or servant be viewed as a mere piece of property without human rights. Nor would the time of servitude be constituted as a life term of bondage (Deuteronomy 15:12-13). Many slaves in the ancient world, and especially those held by the Hebrews, were able to earn their freedom.
  2. The institution of slavery was so deeply rooted in ancient culture that it could not be dismantled overnight. Old Testament scholar Gleason L. Archer notes: “As to the moral status of slavery in ancient times, it must be recognized that it was practiced by every ancient people of which we have any historical record: Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Syrians, Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Greeks, Romans, and all the rest.”1 Furthermore, Christian apologist Paul Copan states: “During the first century A.D., approximately 85 to 90 percent of Rome’s population consisted of slaves.”2 Slavery was viewed as playing a critical economic role for society. Nevertheless, the Old Testament Mosaic Law limited and regulated the practice and sought to correct its inhumane abuses (Exodus 20:10; 21:20-27). Unlike with slavery in other cultures, the masters in a biblical context did not have absolute rights over their slaves. Forms of slavery and servitude were permitted in the Old Testament, but it was never considered the moral ideal (Deuteronomy 15:18).
  3. Unlike some ancient cultures, and certainly unlike the American South in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the slaves in the Old Testament were recognized as full persons who possessed human dignity and basic rights (Deuteronomy 5:14; Job 31:13-15). Abusing one’s slaves and servants was viewed as being both imprudent and immoral (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). A group of biblical scholars provide this perspective on the Old Testament’s true position concerning slavery: “Nowhere was the institution of slavery as such condemned; but then, neither did it have anything like the connotations it grew to have during the days of those who traded human life as if it were a mere commodity for sale.”3
  4. The New Testament indicates that in God’s sight there is “neither slave nor free” (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11) and that both are part of Christ’s church and equally accountable to God (Ephesians 6:5-9). In fact, in the apostolic church, slaves were granted all the rights and privileges of free men (see the book of Philemon).
  5. The likely reason that the apostolic authors of the New Testament did not categorically condemn slavery was because they placed the preaching of the gospel and the redemption of lost souls ahead of societal reform. Yet that very biblical teaching about humankind and their relationship to God through Christ was the inevitable moral and spiritual force that showed the fundamental injustice of slavery in the Western world.
  6. God’s way of eliminating slavery was to allow the biblical teachings (the “Good News”) to spread throughout all cultures. Indeed, it was the Judeo-Christian teaching that human beings have intrinsic value and worth as a result of being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27) that brought an end to slavery. Many in the abolitionist movements of England and America in the nineteenth century were Protestant evangelical Christians. And they viewed slavery as being fundamentally inconsistent with the historic Christian view of man’s creation and redemption.
So while the Bible doesn’t formally and explicitly condemn slavery, neither does it condone it. It was the unique ethical message contained in Scripture concerning human dignity and redemption that provided the moral and spiritual force that ultimately succeeded in eliminating slavery as an institution. The gospel message of salvation in Jesus Christ remains a powerful force against human evil and social injustice. It is also the only antidote for each human being’s slavery to sin and death.

http://www.reasons.org/articles/how-come-the-bible-doesnt-condemn-slavery

It is not your protocol that I am critiquing it is your anger with God and His servants that I refer to.

I have no anger at your YHVH. I don't believe he is God.

Slavery was not a "last resort" for the Hebrew.

Their Laws - supposedly from YHVH - said they could hold real slaves, beat them, breed them, and hand them down as an inheritance.

Only Hebrew indentured servants were to be treated kindly, and set free on certain years.

# 1 - is talking about Hebrew indentured servants.

# 2 - is the usual crap given in Abrahamic apologetics. Other countries did it - so ....

If your YHVH is God he could have stopped it immediately, - or gave a law stating - no slavery because it is just plain wrong!

# 3 - "Full persons?" again only Hebrew indentured servants. Real slaves were not considered full persons. They could be raped, bred, and their children and themselves handed on as possessions, along with the goats, and pots and pans.

# 4 - LOL! a lot of good that did them while they were still being held as slaves. We have multiple verses telling slaves to honor their owners.

# 5 - Christianity did not bring an end to slavery. Growing ideas about human rights did.

# 6 - "The good news" taught slaves to honor their owners.

There is no "unique ethical message" in the Abrahamic faiths. Hammurabi's Code tells us how to act with slaves, and lists compensation for wrongs done to them.

Yes the Bible does condone slavery.

Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

Lev 25:46 And you shall take them for inheritance to your sons after you, to hold for a possession; you may enslave them forever. But on your brothers, the sons of Israel, one over another, you shall not rule over him with severity.

*
Exo 21:4 If his master have given him a woman, and she have born him sons or daughters; the woman and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. (Breeding of slave to pass on.)



*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...
That has never been my experience in the 40 years of being a Christian. I have nothing negative to say about my experiences within Christianity.

I didn't say anything about modern Christianity. I said -

"My study of the Bible tells me the YHVH character is too twisted, and human like in his actions, to be anything more then the made-up God of a people that wanted to do horrendous things, - while claiming God said it was OK!"

According to the stories he destroys everything because some are evil. He personally kills David's baby - for the father's crimes. Allows rape, slavery, murder of those whom are different, etc.


Would you prefer they die of hunger and malnutrition, as there wouldn't have been any adult around to care for them. Surely a quick death is far better then a long drawn out death? God was looking after these babies, however, we do not always see the full story. Did you also know that babies who die are instantly taken back to heavenly father as they have not sinned so cannot be judged.

That is the usual crap I hear and it is not logical.

No one starves if you don't kill the non-combatants. The rest of the tribe carries on.

No one murdering babies - is looking out for babies ,- that is truly twisted.


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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Ohhhhh okay. ;)
Looks like you think you just solved some great mystery. Serenity once was, but is no longer a Mormon. He still believes some Mormon doctrines but now rejects others. He has been completely upfront about that for as long as he's been here.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
If your YHVH is God he could have stopped it immediately, - or gave a law stating - no slavery because it is just plain wrong!

If God intervened directly in the dealings of men the the entire Plan of Salvation would be thwarted because faith would cease to exist.
Yes the Bible does condone slavery.

The Bible neither condemns or condones slavery. You may have interpreted it thus, however, it is all to clear that you have an axe to grind with Christianity and all that it stands for. To have an opinion is fine, however, you are condemning based on your own prejudices and seemingly intolerant dogmatism. The scriptures you have quoted are not without prejudiced interpretation, yet you are adamant that your interpretations are right, however, with every scripture you produce there will be an alternative exegesis. I accept your opinion, and respect your right to it, however, it is my opinion that you are wrong and that your judgement is clouded by your stalwart bigotry.

At the end of the day, all that you have posted here is the immoral dealings of carnal man, over 2000 years ago, Well I agree with you on that, so why do you insist on laying the blame at the feet of someone that you do not believe exists. Why is it necessary for you to be overtly critical of someone that 2.2 billion Christians love. It doesn't make any sense. He doesn't exist to you. You are arguing against an entity that you do not believe exists and the contents of a book that you believe contains evil stories of a God that is a vicious child murderer and a liar, but I see nothing but good wholesome moral values in. Do you believe that Christians secretly want to buy a slave, or kill a baby? Do you believe that I might want to exterminate all the gays on the planet. Why the intensity in your rebuttals, if not because there is something motivating you.?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Looks like you think you just solved some great mystery. Serenity once was, but is no longer a Mormon. He still believes some Mormon doctrines but now rejects others. He has been completely upfront about that for as long as he's been here.
It just makes a little more sense now, is all.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I didn't say anything about modern Christianity. I said -

You have not stipulated anything

"My study of the Bible tells me the YHVH character is too twisted, and human like in his actions, to be anything more then the made-up God of a people that wanted to do horrendous things, - while claiming God said it was OK!"

According to the stories he destroys everything because some are evil. He personally kills David's baby - for the father's crimes. Allows rape, slavery, murder of those whom are different, etc.

That is your opinion and your interpretation. Why not take a look at the mission of the savior and all he did for the poor and afflicted. Why dwell on what you consider to be wrong when there is a good chance that none of it ever happened. Have a look at the positive, they are there if you open your mind.

That is the usual crap I hear and it is not logical.

No one starves if you don't kill the non-combatants. The rest of the tribe carries on.

No one was left to care for the babies. What good did was humane and compassionate, but I am wasting my energy, you will not be able to objectively reason it out.

No one murdering babies - is looking out for babies ,- that is truly twisted.

God did not murder them, it was man who did that because of their wickedness. God cannot intervene because he would thwart his own plan of salvation.[/QUOTE]
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
No it doesn't. The command was given in parable form to the angels. Angels are incapable of murder.

And judgement means that some will be found guilty and to be found guilty is to pay the price. So if you can't do the time (or get executed) don't do the crime.

The passage is a stern warning to those who will not do the will of the Almighty Holy God but instead continue in their own agenda in sin. God will not tolerate this.

No one is commanded to commit murder.
Actually, yes they are but leaving that aside for a moment, how do you know what God will or will not tolerate? I have a firm belief in God but don't believe in sin nor that God is anything like you seem to infer here. Sin is a manmade concept designed to keep the masses in check. And one other thing..angels don't murder? Guess you never read Enoch, or know about the Nephelim. As for being commanded to murder, they are myriad verses in the Bible that command the follower to murder, and God, per your Bible, committed genocide a number of times.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
A 1984 lifestyle? I certainly do not wish for it but in case you hadn't notice it is pretty much here already, especially in respect to big brother. Let me tell you that Orson Well's 1984 did not portray a utopia society

I would say that that depends on who is reading that book. But one only need look at a library to find many more...Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, or Animal Farm.

No, you are not reading it with an open mind rather than a critical closed mind. There is nothing in the Bible that is derogatory. It is all intended to benefit us, after all, it is the literal word of God and God is incapable of being derogatory.

Trust me, my mind is not closed. As a Buddhist, we are taught to have an incredibly open mind. There is plenty in the Bible that is derogatory and God committed genocide a few times, which I consider rather derogatory. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). I call that pretty derogatory.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
If you had a choice between becoming a slave and you family being treated like a human beings or to be beaten to death because there is no one to protect you, then which would you choose? Your being a little naive by not considering the circumstance of that day. But you are missing something very important here. God had no slaves, not a one, so, what is the point you are making, that mankind can be evil and nasty to their fellow men, well, we know that, look at the bombings in Paris and Brussels to get a glimpse of how our society is declining into rampant anarchy. So God used the situation to teach his children, that does not mean that He should be held accountable for what mankind has done, is doing. We are here to be tried and trusted in the flesh. This is an example of man failing the test. But fear not, Jesus atoned for our sins. All we have to do is ask him for forgiveness.
Then why is it in the Bible at all, if mankind are the ones who are doing this and not God? I hear Christians say repeatedly that the Bible IS the word of God yet when the agenda goes against that way of thought, Christians then say it was the fault of mankind. Do you not see how wrongheaded this is?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Would you prefer they die of hunger and malnutrition, as there wouldn't have been any adult around to care for them. Surely a quick death is far better then a long drawn out death? God was looking after these babies, however, we do not always see the full story. Did you also know that babies who die are instantly taken back to heavenly father as they have not sinned so cannot be judged.

Are you speaking here of abortion or the death to have been alleged by God in the Bible? If its the later, do you like breathing air? If you do, if we do not stop the rampant over population of the planet, perpetuated by people of your faith, and the subsequent need for wood for paper, and lumbar and the like, we will use all we have within a few lifetimes and the children of your children will die from want of good sustainable air. I hope you are ok with that.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Some people categorically condemn the Bible because it does not call for the universal abolition of slavery. What they don't understand are the cultural conditions that made slavery a sad necessity. Even so, this was not chattel slavery—masters did not "own" their slaves' humanity; they leased their work. Like divorce and polygamy, slavery was never in God's perfect plan. But, because of sin, for a time and place, slavery was permitted by God, with certain restrictions.

And yet culture implies an historical import to the Bible and therefore is not divinely inspired. Would you assume God would want to add the things of that day and age, knowing full well that the book would be looked at for many generations to come, to the book that is allegedly the word of this God? Either this is the word of God and free of cultural and historical influence, or it is not. One cannot have things both ways.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
If God intervened directly in the dealings of men the the entire Plan of Salvation would be thwarted because faith would cease to exist.

That is pure baloney. There are 613 commandments/Laws - and YHVH if he was real and so wonderful - could have made a law saying no slavery, - instead of one allowing slavery! Men wrote this.


The Bible neither condemns or condones slavery. You may have interpreted it thus, however, it is all to clear that you have an axe to grind with Christianity and all that it stands for. To have an opinion is fine, however, you are condemning based on your own prejudices and seemingly intolerant dogmatism. The scriptures you have quoted are not without prejudiced interpretation, yet you are adamant that your interpretations are right, however, with every scripture you produce there will be an alternative exegesis. I accept your opinion, and respect your right to it, however, it is my opinion that you are wrong and that your judgement is clouded by your stalwart bigotry.

Wrong again. A law allowing it - condones it! Bull to the "interpretation" crap as well.

Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

Lev 25:46 And you shall take them for inheritance to your sons after you, to hold for a possession; you may enslave them forever. But on your brothers, the sons of Israel, one over another, you shall not rule over him with severity.

*
Exo 21:4 If his master have provided him a woman, and she have born him sons or daughters; the woman and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. (Breeding of slave to pass on.)


At the end of the day, all that you have posted here is the immoral dealings of carnal man, over 2000 years ago, Well I agree with you on that, so why do you insist on laying the blame at the feet of someone that you do not believe exists. Why is it necessary for you to be overtly critical of someone that 2.2 billion Christians love. It doesn't make any sense. He doesn't exist to you. You are arguing against an entity that you do not believe exists and the contents of a book that you believe contains evil stories of a God that is a vicious child murderer and a liar, but I see nothing but good wholesome moral values in. Do you believe that Christians secretly want to buy a slave, or kill a baby? Do you believe that I might want to exterminate all the gays on the planet. Why the intensity in your rebuttals, if not because there is something motivating you.?

I haven't laid the blame on a fictional character. I said I don't believe he exists. My study of the Bible tells me YHVH is not God, he is a character made up by ancient patriarchal tribal nomads. Thus we are actually discussing what men wrote, - and did.

The story says YHVH personally murdered King David's innocent baby, - for the sins of the father, - then the father becomes a Bible hero. That is an evil - twisted story.

The Bible is full of evil stories. It says they even kidnapped and raped their own women after committing genocide on one of the tribes.

It says wives were raped for what a husband did.

The murder and rape of women and children for the crimes of men, - shows patriarchal thought, not God.

*
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Slavery is evil, as are those who were involved in it. There is no question about that, however, you have to understand the mentality of people of those times. You can do this by looking at the Mosaic Laws that were in place to keep them under control. But mankind is carnal in nature. That is not God though ...
So when it suits your purposes, Mosaic law is god's own commandment ("God says anal sex is sinful!"); but when you find yourself having to defend the indefensible, it's all down to "the mentality of people of those times" and not god at all.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You have not stipulated anything

Apparently you haven't been paying attention. We are discussing the Bible - which is ancient. I have also stated that I believe YHVH is not God, and is made up by men.

That is your opinion and your interpretation. Why not take a look at the mission of the savior and all he did for the poor and afflicted.

As I said - ""My study of the Bible tells me the YHVH character is too twisted, and human like in his actions, to be anything more then the made-up God of a people that wanted to do horrendous things, - while claiming God said it was OK!"

According to the stories he destroys everything because some are evil. He personally kills David's baby - for the father's crimes. Allows rape, slavery, murder of those whom are different, etc.



Why dwell on what you consider to be wrong when there is a good chance that none of it ever happened. Have a look at the positive, they are there if you open your mind.

Because most Christians insist it is true, and try to force Abrahamic law on others, while being hypocrites in not following all of it themselves.

No one was left to care for the babies. What good did was humane and compassionate, but I am wasting my energy, you will not be able to objectively reason it out.

Again - if you don't horrendously murder NON-COMBATANTS - then there are plenty of people to take care of the babies. Women, older children, older man and women, people that were injured or sick when the war started, people that were away, etc.

God did not murder them, it was man who did that because of their wickedness. God cannot intervene because he would thwart his own plan of salvation.

Don't change context. - YOU SAID - "... Surely a quick death is far better then a long drawn out death? God was looking after these babies,..."

To which I said - "No one murdering babies - is looking out for babies ,- that is truly twisted."

And these were supposedly ordered kills. Also according to the stories YHVH kills babies for adult's so-called crimes. Flood story, personally killing King David's baby, etc.


*
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I would say that that depends on who is reading that book. But one only need look at a library to find many more...Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, or Animal Farm.

Trust me, my mind is not closed. As a Buddhist, we are taught to have an incredibly open mind. There is plenty in the Bible that is derogatory and God committed genocide a few times, which I consider rather derogatory. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). I call that pretty derogatory.
[

To a degree, we all have closed minds to our beliefs, that is why we are able to debate here.

Again you make the same error in your indictment and condemnation of God. God has never physically killed a living soul, It would be impossible as he is perfect in form and spirit, it was man that did the killing, not God. David was reaping the rewards of His action so the blood of the slain was on his hands. It always comes back to the same old thing. Science calls it cause and effect, philosophers would call it reaping what we sow but the short and tall of it is that we are accountable for our own actions. However, again, this is a story, a tale, it may never have happened.

You need to read Exodus 21:1-11 as it doesn't say what you claim it says. In Judges 11:29-40 it was Jephthah and not God. Isaiah 13:16 is another case of the choices of man and not the actions of God. I give up though. You are just looking to stigmatize the image of God by making false allegation that can be easily deciphered by just reading without bias. 2000 year have passed and 2.2 billion Christians walk the earth believing that God is loving, kind, benevolent, charitable, empathetic, and without the capacity to hurt anyone. It is only His critiques that indict Him thus. The Bible remains the best selling book of all times, which suggests that it is not as you would have us believe it is.[/QUOTE]
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
That is pure baloney. There are 613 commandments/Laws - and YHVH if he was real and so wonderful - could have made a law saying no slavery, - instead of one allowing slavery! Men wrote this.

I do not believe so, however, I can understand why you do. I can only reiterate what I have already said, that we are here to be tried and tested in the flesh and judged for our choices. We have to live our lives by faith, that is, without a sure and certain knowledge of the existence of God. One such choice of mankind was to introduce slavery, not God. Mankind will be held accountable for it, by God.

Wrong again. A law allowing it - condones it! Bull to the "interpretation" crap as well.

You are right, however, the law was made by man, not God.

Bull to the "interpretation" crap as well? The individuals interpretation is paramount here so to call it crap shows that you are being incredulous.

I haven't laid the blame on a fictional character.

Well, if you do not believe that he exists then He must be fictional, surely.

I said I don't believe he exists.

Then He must be fictional.

My study of the Bible tells me YHVH is not God,

My study of the Bible tells me that God and YHVH are synonymous. One and the same. It is just that one is written in Hebrew.

he is a character made up by ancient patriarchal tribal nomads. Thus we are actually discussing what men wrote, - and did.

We are reading exactly what God has inspired men to write, that it has a resemblance to the myths of tribal nomads is insignificant..

The story says YHVH personally murdered King David's innocent baby, - for the sins of the father, - then the father becomes a Bible hero. That is an evil - twisted story.

It is, however, it is either you or I who is twisting it. I have not read it that way

The Bible is full of evil stories. It says they even kidnapped and raped their own women after committing genocide on one of the tribes.

The Bible is full of moral parables, allegories, concepts, precepts and righteous principles. All of the stories have moral connotation that are intended to guide the reader into paths of righteousness.

Isn't it wicked of them to kidnap and raped their own women? Lets hope that we can learn from this story of their wicked ways. It is probably the reason why God included the story in the Bible

It says wives were raped for what a husband did.

Again, a terrible atrocity and evidence of the mentality of men in those days, who needed the Mosaic Laws to keep them in check. The same kind of atrocity occur today throughout the world, yet we do not blame God for that. How blessed we are to have the Bible to teach us that these things are immoral and man will be held accountable for them.

The murder and rape of women and children for the crimes of men, - shows patriarchal thought, not God.

But God didn't do it, men chose to do it and will be held accountable for it, by God.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
... right now. There's nothing preventing plural marriage from being reinstituted if they think it's God's will.

... and only on Earth. If they get married in a "Celestial marriage" (i.e. one that's supposed to continue in Heaven) and the spouse dies, they can enter into a new "Celestial marriage" with a new spouse. IOW, they can do their best to arrange for polygamy in Heaven.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

I am sorry that you feel that way, however, I do my best.

We are discussing the Bible - which is ancient. I have also stated that I believe YHVH is not God, and is made up by men.

Then I am paying attention, because I got that.

As I said - ""My study of the Bible tells me the YHVH character is too twisted, and human like in his actions, to be anything more then the made-up God of a people that wanted to do horrendous things, - while claiming God said it was OK!"

Yes, I got that as well.

According to the stories he destroys everything because some are evil. He personally kills David's baby - for the father's crimes. Allows rape, slavery, murder of those whom are different, etc.

I am assuming that you are referring to people that wanted to do horrendous things, - while claiming God said it was, if so then i am still getting it.

Because most Christians insist it is true, and try to force Abrahamic law on others, while being hypocrites in not following all of it themselves.

Yep, I am still with you, and agreeing with you thus far.

Again - if you don't horrendously murder NON-COMBATANTS - then there are plenty of people to take care of the babies. Women, older children, older man and women, people that were injured or sick when the war started, people that were away, etc.

As I said, there was none of these people that you describe.

In 1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" God ordered similar things when the Israelites were invading the promised land (Deuteronomy 2:34; 3:6; 20:16-18). Why would God have the Israelites exterminate an entire group of people, women and children included,not God.

Don't change context. - YOU SAID - "... Surely a quick death is far better then a long drawn out death? God was looking after these babies,..."

I am not changing context I am giving you a reason why God did not murder them, that it was man who did that because of their wickedness. God cannot intervene because he would thwart his own plan of salvation.
To which I said - "No one murdering babies - is looking out for babies ,- that is truly twisted."

I agree, so the Israelite's will reap a just reward for their actions, whether it be a punishment or a blessing, dependent on whether they actually did receive revelation from God to commit genocide or whether they were acting for themselves.. There is no need for you and I to worry about it as God will deal with it.

And these were supposedly ordered kills. Also according to the stories YHVH kills babies for adult's so-called crimes. Flood story, personally killing King David's baby, etc.

No, that is an impossibility as God cannot interact with mankind, for reasons already given. It is man that murders, not God.
 
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