Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage

[Serenity7855]

If you commit a crime, the legal system doesn't destroy the whole world though - rather, it punishes the individual who committed the crime.

It was a similitude intended for you to better understand.

Plus, I don't see any reason to believe that there is any divine force behind natural disasters.

Well, you are not a Christian, your point is incontrovertibly predictable.

If it were the case, why is it that when Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana a few years back, it destroyed basically everything, but the red light district was kept in tact. Wouldn't that be the first place your god would want to destroy?

We are talking about natural disasters that are the result of disobedience against God, not controlled by God. Once set in motion there is no turning back. Mankind has made the choice and must reap the consequence. How may times should He stay His hand? Besides, you judge those who work in a red light district as sinning so badly that they should be put to death, but, as Jesus said, "let him that is without sin cast the first stone". talking about a prostitute.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Again, none of this reflects on any words that I have written. Please reread my post to see what point I was making. You are stabbing in the dark

I think it speaks directly to what you wrote. You said that a majority of British government officials were gay, bisexual and/or atheist and that this has something to do with some kind of plot for world domination. So when myself and another poster point out that the number of British MP's that are gay/bisexual is still not even enough to properly represent the portion of the British population that is gay or bisexual, I'd say that speaks directly to your point. Government is supposed to be there to represent the population it is serving. Plus the fact that the 5% of MPs that are gay or bisexual is representative of no where near any kind of majority in British government.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It was a similitude intended for you to better understand.

Well, you are not a Christian, your point is incontrovertibly predictable.

What makes you think that natural disasters are not natural (besides the fact that you are a Christian)?
Are there some reasons I should be looking at to convince me that natural disasters are not natural?

We are talking about natural disaster that are instigate by God not controlled by God.

How is that not the same thing?

Once set in motion there is no turning back. Mankind has made the choice and must reap the consequence. Besides, you judge those who work in a red light district as sinning so badly that they should be put to death, but, as Jesus said, "let him that is without sin cast the first stone". talking about a prostitute.

I don't personally think anyone is, or should be punished by a hurricane for doing anything. But one would think that if god destroys things with hurricanes (as you claim) and in the Bible destroys places like Sodom and Gomorrah for the sexual sinfulness of its occupants, you'd think god would similarly destroy the red light district in Louisiana given that there was a hurricane there in the first place. To me it's just evidence that natural disasters are random acts of nature rather than the result of the purposeful actions of some god.

 

[Serenity7855]

I think it speaks directly to what you wrote. You said that a majority of British government officials were gay, bisexual and/or atheist and that this has something to do with some kind of plot for world domination.

No I did not. I said the reason why Christmas seems like it is not being celebrated as much is because the media, government and retail business have a high proportion of gays working in them who dampen the merriment. Nobody mentioned the media as there are mountains of evidence that proves that gays are very much over represented and in control, thus giving the impression that the world is accepting of the lifestyle. However, I was picked up on the politicians, and rightly so.
.

So when myself and another poster point out that the number of British MP's that are gay/bisexual is still not even enough to properly represent the portion of the British population that is gay or bisexual, I'd say that speaks directly to your point.

Then you would be wrong as that was not the point under contention. I did not mention anything about representation of minority groups. I was talking about why Christmas is loosing its luster.

Government is supposed to be there to represent the population it is serving. Plus the fact that the 5% of MPs that are gay or bisexual is representative of no where near any kind of majority in British government.

You have already said that, and I would agree, however, you are crediting me with a point I did not make

 

[Serenity7855]

What makes you think that natural disasters are not natural (besides the fact that you are a Christian)?
Are there some reasons I should be looking at to convince me that natural disasters are not natural?

They are natural disaster that are triggered by laws of the universe.

How is that not the same thing?

Once in motion there cycle is controled by nature and the natural laws of the universe.

I don't personally think anyone is, or should be punished by a hurricane for doing anything.

niether would I, however, you are not God having His wisdom and Knowledge so it is a mote point.

But one would think that if god destroys things with hurricanes (as you claim) and in the Bible destroys places like Sodom and Gomorrah for the sexual sinfulness of its occupants, you'd think god would similarly destroy the red light district in Louisiana given that there was a hurricane there in the first place.

God had warned them for years that their behavior would bring them certain death, however, they ignored Him. How many warnings did God give to the prostitutes.

To me it's just evidence that natural disasters are random acts of nature rather than the result of the purposeful actions of some god.

They are random acts of nature. Not all natural disasters are the result of some boy bullying a young girl, When God issues a warning it comes with a consequence. That consequence can be in the form of a natural disaster or a influence on mankind to do the killing. It is a natural consequence induced by the refusal to curtail severe sin. It was only brought into play in the old testament because the people of those times were barbaric.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No I did not. I said the reason why Christmas seems like it is not being celebrated as much is because the media, government and retail business have a high proportion of gays working in them who dampen the merriment.

First of all, how do gay people dampen the merriment of Christmas? They don’t like Christmas?


Secondly, you said that “95% of the worlds wealth belongs to these handful of atheists who control our governments and all media outlets, like the Belderberg Group of billionaires.”


When you posted that, another poster asked you to prove that all the world’s wealth is owned and driven by atheists, to which you responded with the following post:


“Ok, I may have slightly exaggerated but 32 MPs is a significant number.

Westminster becomes the world's gayest Parliament with 32 openly gay, lesbian and bisexual MPs

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lesbian-bisexual-MPs-compared-10-Holland.html

Global wealth inequality: top 1% own 41%; top 10% own 86%; bottom half own just 1%

https://thenextrecession.wordpress....nequality-10-own-86-1-own-41-half-own-just-1/

Big Business Increasingly Supports Gay Rights

From Chick-fil-A to Apple, more and more major companies are taking policy positions on gay marriage. Arguably, there’s a business case for supporting it. Google, Starbucks, Nike, General Mills, and other big brands have all opened themselves up to both the potential risk and opportunity of supporting LGBT equality. Even Lloyd Blankfein, CEO of Goldman Sachs, announced his support in a Human Rights Campaign public service announcement: “America’s corporations learned long ago that equality is just good business and it’s the right thing to do.”

There has been a steady increase in the number of large employers including sexual orientation in non-discrimination policies and offering same-sex partner benefits. A 2010 Mercer survey of about 3,000 companies found that same-sex benefits were offered by 72 percent of companies employing more than 20,000 people. Americans align themselves with brands that reflect their values — and according to recent opinion polls by Gallup, ABC, and CNN, marriage equality is now supported by a majority of mainstream Americans.
https://hbr.org/2012/09/big-business-increasingly-supp”



Then I and another poster pointed out that gay people are still underrepresented in Parliament to which you replied, “32 is quite a few and can make a big difference.”


So it appears that you are the one who took your point off course by responding with stats about gay people rather than atheists having something to do with Christmas.


Furthermore, I don’t see that Christmas isn’t being celebrated as much (at least where I live). Quite the opposite in fact – Christmas now starts the day after Halloween and lasts until at least New Year’s day. It’s a “season” rather than one day a year.

Then you would be wrong as that was not the point under contention. I did not mention anything about representation of minority groups. I was talking about why Christmas is loosing its luster.

Then why post the stuff about gay British MPs at all?

As far as I can tell, gay people don’t hate Christmas.

You have already said that, and I would agree, however, you are crediting me with a point I did not make

Then why say this, “I was demonstrating that minorities can have dramatic effects on majorities.” ?

 

[Ingledsva]

Nor really, although the concept is not risible. What I said that it was the natural consequence of their disobedience, continue in what you are doing and a flood will distroy all of you. After God had warned them the trap was sprung and set to go either way. Death or Life, it was their choose. Have you ever heard of the expression "you choose to do the crime so prepare to do the time" If you go out and steal then there is a chance you will get caught and the consequence of that is an automatic prison sentence. All of our actions have an equal and opposite reactions. It is a fixed natural principle in science, so why would you question it in the supernatural, or give an impression that it is foolishly supercilious to give it consideration.

And again - this would not allow for any kind of "moral" killing of the innocent. There is no way you can get around this. A real God would not do this.

Just made-up stories.

*

 

[SkepticThinker]

They are natural disaster that are triggered by laws of the universe.

Once in motion there cycle is controled by nature and the natural laws of the universe.

niether would I, however, you are not God having His wisdom and Knowledge so it is a mote point.

This doesn't make any sense then.

God had warned them for years that their behavior would bring them certain death, however, they ignored Him. How many warnings did God give to the prostitutes.

Funny how this god only warned people about things thousands of years ago but ceases to do so now.

Are the prostitutes not sinning? Haven't you been saying that natural disasters are the result of sin?

They are random acts of nature. Not all natural disasters are the result of some boy bullying a young girl, When God issues a warning it comes with a consequence. That consequence can be in the form of a natural disaster or a influence on mankind to do the killing. It is a natural consequence induced by the refusal to curtail severe sin. It was only brought into play in the old testament because the people of those times were barbaric.

So how can we determine with natural disasters were created by god and which just happen naturally? I see that as something of a problem. Plus if you are going to say that the consequences of our actions can be in the form of mankind doing killing (for god?) than you're justifying pretty much anything any person says they are doing on the authority of god. So that woman who drowned her 5 kids in the bathtub because she thought god wanted her to do it, is justified in her actions, because how could we determine whether god did or didn't tell her to do that?

The whole thing looks to be a cop out to me anyway. If you can't pin down which natural disasters are just happening and which ones are the result of human beings' actions, or which human's actions are the results of god's will and which aren't, how can you determine at all that god makes natural disasters to punish anyone or that god commands anyone to do anything?

 

[Ingledsva]

They are natural disaster that are triggered by laws of the universe.
Once in motion there cycle is controled by nature and the natural laws of the universe.
niether would I, however, you are not God having His wisdom and Knowledge so it is a mote point.

God had warned them for years that their behavior would bring them certain death, however, they ignored Him. How many warnings did God give to the prostitutes.

They are random acts of nature. Not all natural disasters are the result of some boy bullying a young girl, When God issues a warning it comes with a consequence. That consequence can be in the form of a natural disaster or a influence on mankind to do the killing. It is a natural consequence induced by the refusal to curtail severe sin. It was only brought into play in the old testament because the people of those times were barbaric.

Such immoral ideas prove that YHVH is not God.

A real God, - and one whom supposedly put out that - DO NOT MURDER LAW, - would not then illogically and immorally murder the innocent, - for the crimes of others.

*

 

[Serenity7855]

This doesn't make any sense then.

They are natural disaster that are triggered by laws of the universe.

Nature laws of the Universe is basically Moral Accountability, or cause and effect. Bang your head against a brick wall and you end up with a headache. Act in a unrighteous, abominable, odious and reprehensible manner and you will be destroyed

A Natural Law is Gravity

natural law
noun
plural noun: natural laws

1. 1.
   a body of unchanging moral principles regarded as a basis for all human conduct.
   "an adjudication based on natural law"
2. 2.
   an observable law relating to natural phenomena.
   "the natural laws of perspective"

Once in motion there cycle is controlled by nature and the natural laws of the universe.

The Natural Laws of the Universal Consciousness.

There is a single, intelligent Consciousness that pervades the entire Universe - the Universal Mind. It is all knowing, all powerful, all creative and always present. As it is present everywhere at the same time, it follows that it must also be present in you - that it is you. Your mind is part of the one Universal Mind. This is not simply a philosophical ideal passed down to us through the ages. It is an exact scientific truth. Know it, believe it, apply it and you will see your life transform in miraculous ways. A law of the universe is not to disobey God as the universal consciousness will detect it and act accordingly. The universe is alive and awake. It hears everything you say and think and acts upon it. When enough of us become wicked and debaucherous then the universal mind reacts. God saw it coming and warned them. They didn't listen so they reaped the reward.

The Spiritual Law of ATTRACTION

“To better understand the Law of Attraction, see yourself as a magnet attracting unto you the essence of that which you are thinking and feeling. And so, if you are feeling fat, you cannot attract thin. If you are feeling poor, you cannot attract prosperity. And so on. It defies Law.

The more you come to understand the power of the Law of Attraction, the more interest you will have in deliberately directing your thoughts—for you get what you think about, whether you want it or not. Without exception, that which you give thought to is that which you begin to invite into your experience.”
http://www.mind-your-reality.com/universal_mind.html

niether would I, however, you are not God having His wisdom and Knowledge so it is a mote point.

This is simple, we do not see the whole picture whereas God does. That is why we should obey Him as he knows what is best for us. He knows when the universal laws will be evoked.

Funny how this god only warned people about things thousands of years ago but ceases to do so now.

Well no it is not. The people of the Old Testament were under the Mosaic Laws. The people of the New Testament, right up until the present day, are under the Abrahamic Covenant.

Are the prostitutes not sinning? Haven't you been saying that natural disasters are the result of sin?

it is not for me to judge them. God judges us all individually according to the environment that we exist in. You do not know the stories of these prostitutes and why they do what they do. Secondly, there is no comparison between the sins of the prostitutes and those of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah. So wicked were they that God found it necessary to warn them.

So how can we determine with natural disasters were created by god and which just happen naturally? I see that as something of a problem

.
Read the stories in the Old Testament.

Plus if you are going to say that the consequences of our actions can be in the form of mankind doing killing (for god?) than you're justifying pretty much anything any person says they are doing on the authority of god.

Not at all, we do not live under the Mosaic Laws anymore.

So that woman who drowned her 5 kids in the bathtub because she thought god wanted her to do it, is justified in her actions, because how could we determine whether god did or didn't tell her to do that?

Because we know that we do not live under the Mosaic Laws anymore. That woman will be judged in accordance with the Abrahamic Covenant.

Just as a matter of interest, what would be the reason for a perfect God to influence a mother to kill her children. What would be the greater good, as God cannot do no wrong, if He could then He would cease to be God. The people in Sodom and Gomorrah were unimaginably wicked, so much so that the crossed the line and the universe responded.

The whole thing looks to be a cop out to me anyway.

Well yes, of course it would, you have not been touched by the Spirit of God. The eyes of your understanding have yet to be opened.

If you can't pin down which natural disasters are just happening and which ones are the result of human beings' actions, or which human's actions are the results of god's will and which aren't, how can you determine at all that god makes natural disasters to punish anyone or that god commands anyone to do anything

Because I know that the Mosaic Laws were fulfilled by Jesus during the Sermon on the Mount. We will not be allowed to reach the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah ever again as the second coming will precede that point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do believe that you are guilty of Gish Gallop. I might be wrong but I am getting that feeling.

Well, you keep setting them up and I will keep knocking them down, simply because we both look at the same stories from completely different perspectives. You are influenced by your bias to destroy Christianity and all that it stands for and I am influenced by my bias of loving God and all that He stands for. As I have been converted by the Holy Ghost I can never do a U turn because I know that there is a divinity and to deny it would render me a son of perdition. I don't know what caused your hatred for Christianity, maybe you just like to play devil advocate and contend, whatever it was has wheedled you into believing it is as correct as mine is to me. We will never agree.

I'm just trying to figure out who killed these people. The Bible says god, but you said god can't kill, you then said people, but that's like saying the Jews killed themselves off for angering the Nazis, and then you said natural disasters, but there is no natural disaster that accounts for someone being turned into a pillar of salt.

 

[Ingledsva]

...

Well no it is not. The people of the Old Testament were under the Mosaic Laws. The people of the New Testament, right up until the present day, are under the Abrahamic Covenant.

it is not for me to judge them. God judges us all individually according to the environment that we exist in. You do not know the stories of these prostitutes and why they do what they do. Secondly, there is no comparison between the sins of the prostitutes and those of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah. So wicked were they that God found it necessary to warn them.

Read the stories in the Old Testament....
Not at all, we do not live under the Mosaic Laws anymore...

Just as a matter of interest, what would be the reason for a perfect God to influence a mother to kill her children. What would be the greater good, as God cannot do no wrong, if He could then He would cease to be God. The people in Sodom and Gomorrah were unimaginably wicked, so much so that the crossed the line and the universe responded.
...
Because I know that the Mosaic Laws were fulfilled by Jesus during the Sermon on the Mount. We will not be allowed to reach the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah ever again as the second coming will precede that point.

Jesus doesn't say the laws were fulfilled yet. Note that - UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY.

Mat 5:17 Do not think that I came to annul the Law/Torah or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.

Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one yod or one stroke pass away from the Law/Torah until all comes to pass.

Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever loosens one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the worst in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 5:20 For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of YHVH, never!

*
There is no way every person in Sodom and Gomorrah was evil. There would have been innocent children, etc. What about Lots daughters that didn't get to leave? According to the story the angels/messengers shoved Lot out. His other daughters weren't evil. Thus it would be more murder of the innocent.

*

 

[JoStories]

Ok, I may have slightly exaggerated but 32 MPs is a significant number.

Westminster becomes the world's gayest Parliament with 32 openly gay, lesbian and bisexual MPs

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lesbian-bisexual-MPs-compared-10-Holland.html

Global wealth inequality: top 1% own 41%; top 10% own 86%; bottom half own just 1%

https://thenextrecession.wordpress....nequality-10-own-86-1-own-41-half-own-just-1/

Big Business Increasingly Supports Gay Rights

From Chick-fil-A to Apple, more and more major companies are taking policy positions on gay marriage. Arguably, there’s a business case for supporting it. Google, Starbucks, Nike, General Mills, and other big brands have all opened themselves up to both the potential risk and opportunity of supporting LGBT equality. Even Lloyd Blankfein, CEO of Goldman Sachs, announced his support in a Human Rights Campaign public service announcement: “America’s corporations learned long ago that equality is just good business and it’s the right thing to do.”

There has been a steady increase in the number of large employers including sexual orientation in non-discrimination policies and offering same-sex partner benefits. A 2010 Mercer survey of about 3,000 companies found that same-sex benefits were offered by 72 percent of companies employing more than 20,000 people. Americans align themselves with brands that reflect their values — and according to recent opinion polls by Gallup, ABC, and CNN, marriage equality is now supported by a majority of mainstream Americans.
https://hbr.org/2012/09/big-business-increasingly-supp

I have no idea what you think you were proving by this post because what you said was that the world's wealth was all held by atheists. You said:

The reason that it seems like nobody celebrates it now is because almost all major media companies, most politicians and retail company executives and owners are atheists who control what we see and what we don't see. 95% of the worlds wealth belongs to these handful of atheists who control our governments and all media outlets, like the Belderberg Group of billionaires. So, you got it wrong. Christianity will be with us until Jesus Christ returns in all His Glory and majesty and we will be fighting these handful of dictators until He does..

You will note what I bolded and underlined. That was what I asked to you prove. This other....I will address separately but this is NOT what I asked you to prove.

 

[JoStories]

Wrong about God not killing anyone. Just off the top of my head there is the alleged 'great flood" where God drowns all but a chosen few. Or Sodom where God destroyed the entire town with Lot looking on.

You listen to much to your fellow atheists. Both of those events were the result of mans choices. They had been told to change their ways or die. They choose death. [/QUOTE]
1. I am NOT an atheist. But I do love and appreciate all peoples of any faith and of none.
2, And God killed them. Whatever they may have done, the result was that God killed them. That was the entire point.

 

[JoStories]

That is hypocritical of you because the Supreme Court, through their redefining of what marriage is and its purposes, has "foisted" their belief in regards to marriage upon society through legislation.

At no other time in human history has marriage been defined the way they define it now.

How is marriage fundamentally any different now than it has been? Two people can join in a union based on love and shared goals, dreams etc, and marry. It does not matter if the two are a man and a woman, two men or two women. Please explain how that is different. And please do not hand me the procreation aspect. Many heterosexual couples do not have children, either by choice or by being infertile. Not to mention, I note that no one has said a word about my asking if you like to breathe because if you continue to pop out children, at some point in the future, we will all die from lack of air because of lack of trees.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think it speaks directly to what you wrote. You said that a majority of British government officials were gay, bisexual and/or atheist and that this has something to do with some kind of plot for world domination. So when myself and another poster point out that the number of British MP's that are gay/bisexual is still not even enough to properly represent the portion of the British population that is gay or bisexual, I'd say that speaks directly to your point. Government is supposed to be there to represent the population it is serving. Plus the fact that the 5% of MPs that are gay or bisexual is representative of no where near any kind of majority in British government.

It's utter projection on Serenity's part when you take into consideration the Dominionist movement in American politics which is actively and openly trying to subvert the country's Constitution and Christianise the Government at every level - as well as the fact that . The same old tactic: get in there early and accuse your opponents of what you're trying to do so people focus on them doing the thing, but not you.

 

[JoStories]

No it is not. Let me rephrase your sentence to make it more accurate,

"According to our beliefs, we cannot support homosexuality. Therefore, we cannot allow you to adopt any of the children from this institution. We will, however, recommend other agencies that would be able to help you find a child to adopt. God bless and have a nice day."

If you believe that that is "foisting" a belief on someone, then I would also be guilty of "foisting" my belief about alcohol on those who come knocking on my door asking for some? I am "foisting" my belief that drinking alcohol is sinful if I tell them I have none and point them in the direction of where they could get some?

So, when someone tries to bum a cigarette off me, when I confess not to have a cigarette, I am "foisting" my beliefs concerning tobacco on that person? They can cry out, "Discrimination?"

I actually think this is a fair thing to say and for the church to do. I am Bisexual and even so, I would not expect or want you or the church to act on something that is totally against what you believe. And I don't think its fair for anyone to expect that you do do that. As you say, there are plenty of other places a SSM couple can go to adopt. In fact, my cousin and his husband did just that for two children. And many others have as well.

 

[JoStories]

Even if that were true, it would be completely irrelevant.

The fact remains that certain religions define "marriage" only one way.

By changing the definition and then forcing members of the religion to "recognize" what they do not believe is true marriage, you are destroying their religious freedom.

It would be like someone splashing people with water and those people coming into an LDS chapel claiming they have been baptized as a member of the Church.

No, that is not "baptism" as we understand it. We cannot recognize that as a "baptism" and remain loyal to our beliefs. It is either one or the other.

Now this isn't true nor is it fair. No one is 'destroying your religious freedom'. You are free to believe anything you want to and free to deny SSM couples from adopting or even entering your church. So please tell me how that is destroying your religious freedom? All that has happened is that the SCOTUS has voted to allow SSM to marry in the same way and manner as any heterosexual couple. We can do that with some churches that are more forward thinking or with the use of JP. I would like you to explain how that destroys your religious freedom and please be specific.

 

[JoStories]

Nor really, although the concept is not risible. What I said that it was the natural consequence of their disobedience, continue in what you are doing and a flood will distroy all of you. After God had warned them the trap was sprung and set to go either way. Death or Life, it was their choose. Have you ever heard of the expression "you choose to do the crime so prepare to do the time" If you go out and steal then there is a chance you will get caught and the consequence of that is an automatic prison sentence. All of our actions have an equal and opposite reactions. It is a fixed natural principle in science, so why would you question it in the supernatural, or give an impression that it is foolishly supercilious to give it consideration.

I
IMO, this is a poor example. On the one hand, the judge with pass the sentence. On the other, God does the killing. There is no other way to see this. Yes, they disobeyed. Ok...I will hand you that. But in the end, rather than being compassionate or giving them some license, God intentionally killed them all. I get that you see it that it was their own fault, but that does not negate the fact that it was God who killed them. And if that is your view of what and who God is, that makes God into a rather monstrous being.

 

[JoStories]

I also admited that I had unknowingly over exaggerated the numbers. I believed that I was right but on investigation I was wrong, so why are you still persisting with it. I was wrong, have you ever been wrong? If you have then your critique here is hypocritical Surely you are not pouncing because someone has made an unintentional mistake?

And who is we? are you speaking on behalf of other posters, and if you are, do you have their permission. The alternative is that you are using it to intimidate me by suggesting that I am being surrounded.

The problem is is that you chose to answer my prove it question with information that had absolutely nothing to do with what I asked. You made a comment about the world's wealth. I asked you to prove that and you presented information about the UK's percentage of gay parliament members. What does the one have to do with the other????