Mormon sex therapist faces discipline and possible expulsion from the LDS Church

[Fallen Prophet]

Before I get to all your new comments I wanted to inform you that I believe I am wrong on this issue.

Well - half wrong.

I was thinking about abortion the other day - how I believe that it is murder - yet I also believe that there are situations where an abortion may not be considered murder - such as if the life of the mother is in jeopardy.

It's the same with killing an adult - if I am attacked and my assailant is killed as a result of me defending myself - that may not be considered murder.

This got me thinking that there are exceptions to almost every rule - that's the nature of imperfect mortality - all kinds of gray areas where you need to rely on the Spirit in order to know where best to go.

So - any expectant mother who is told that her life may be at risk from her pregnancy and anyone who is assaulted who has the opportunity to overcome their attacker - they need to try and do as the Spirit dictates.

Therefore - in regards to masturbation - I still believe that it is sinful and a form of self-abuse - just as I still believe that abortion is murder - but there may be exceptions.

One exception that came quick to my mind real quick was about this guy I used to work with - poor ******* - we used to work in close proximity and we chatted about all kinds of stuff - mostly political and religious.

He eventually confided in me that even though he had been married to his wife close to thirty years - he hadn't had sex in about twenty - because she one day decided that she didn't want to have sex anymore.

I guess she was kinda OCD and she felt that any pleasure had in sex was not worth the "ew" of fluid exchange and clean up.

And since he would never consider divorcing her over it - I believe that his situation grants him an exception to the rule.

I also thought about men who have prostate issues. They may need to ejaculate more to "clear the sluices" for health reasons.

That has kinda been my stance on marijuana use - that it is wrong in the general - but they are those who could benefit from it medically.

I still believe that someone masturbating every day "just because" is in danger of committing sin - but if they have circumstances placed on them due to the conditions of imperfect mortality and the Spirit dictates that they have the "go ahead" - then I wouldn't claim they were committing sin.

So? Someone has to. Like how the Mormon's racist policies of the past. Those didn't change themselves with people remaining silent on the issue.

I don't know everything about the Mormons - but I'm fairly certain that criticism or peer pressure did not affect their decision to give the Priesthood to all worthy males.

If they had - then they would have done it a lot sooner.

They believe that God speaks and that God told them when to begin and end the ban.

But you've cited nothing to support this. Believing something doesn't make it so.

There is literally no proof that masturbation is sinful - besides ones belief - so what could I cite?

I don't think you are going to care much for scripture quotes about lustful thoughts.

And all you have done is share the opinions of "experts" which basically boil down to "orgasms make us feel good".

Some people have no desire for sexual contact with others.

That is true - like with my friend's wife - that poor *******.

The truly sad part is that they didn't have any children. Children would have helped ease his soul a bit - in my opinion.

For whatever reason, it's not my place (or care or concern) to tell them they are wrong and insist they have to change.

This may be an exception to the general rule - but I personally wouldn't think its healthy.

An orgasm is defined as the pinnacle of sexual sensation/arousal. Am orgasm is a normal part of sex. There are many ways to have one, including masturbation.

Yes - so all your "experts" have proven is that orgasms make us feel good - which is no surprise.

It doesn't prove that masturbating is beneficial.

Just like how everyone in the world knows that human like to eat - that doesn't mean candy is beneficial.

Nah, sometimes its good to just chill and have fun and relax.

There are definitely times when we need to rest.

"There's a time to sow and a time to reap."

But - if all you are doing is sowing - then you get no benefits.

We need to rest - but only so we can get back to living, growing and building.

I don't have a mate.

Would that be the case if the only way you could "pinnacle" was with your mate?

Maybe masturbating as often as you do has lessened your desire to find a mate?

More needless shame and guilt needlessly assigned to such a mundane amd harmless sex act.

Well - you don't have a mate - so I don't think it's harmless.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know everything about the Mormons - but I'm fairly certain that criticism or peer pressure did not affect their decision to give the Priesthood to all worthy males.

If they had - then they would have done it a lot sooner.

They believe that God speaks and that God told them when to begin and end the ban.

It took pressure and society around them starting to accept that just maybe black people aren't that bad after all.

There is literally no proof that masturbation is sinful - besides ones belief - so what could I cite

That settles it. Literally no proof it's bad. And because sin only applies to those who believe in it then the point seems moot.

And all you have done is share the opinions of "experts" which basically boil down to "orgasms make us feel good".

It's more than you've done.

That is true - like with my friend's wife - that poor *******.

Just, wow. If he's ok with this then why harsh?
Why are Christians so obsessed with the sex lives of others?

The truly sad part is that they didn't have any children. Children would have helped ease his soul a bit - in my opinion.

Do you have a crystal ball to know this for sure?
Of course not.

Yes - so all your "experts" have proven is that orgasms make us feel good - which is no surprise.

It doesn't prove that masturbating is beneficial.

These degreed professionals did indeed state masturbation has some benefits, beyond just feeling good.

Just like how everyone in the world knows that human like to eat - that doesn't mean candy is beneficial.

Candy in moderation isn't bad for us. You can't engorge in it, but a piece every once in awhile is negligible on our healthn

Maybe masturbating as often as you do has lessened your desire to find a mate?

Do tell me with your crystal ball how often I do it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I guess she was kinda OCD and she felt that any pleasure had in sex was not worth the "ew" of fluid exchange and clean up.

And since he would never consider divorcing her over it - I believe that his situation grants him an exception to the rule.

Seems he's more serious about "through sickness and health, till death do us part" than you are.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It took pressure and society around them starting to accept that just maybe black people aren't that bad after all.

That is your opinion - and a very uninformed one at that.

I don't know everything about the Mormons - but I do know that their doctrine never contained anything about black people being "bad".

They believe that the Priesthood can be given to any worthy male - but not every worthy male is "entitled" to it - meaning that there are times certain worthy males could be denied the privilege.

I mean - this stuff is right out of the Bible too - only the sons of Aaron and Levi had the right to the Priesthood - even though certain men from other tribes were given it from time to time.

Black Mormons were never denied baptism or other saving ordinances. They were never denied admittance into worship services.

Just - for some reason - which they claim was "revelation" - they decided to begin a ban.

Before the ban - many black men had been given the Priesthood and I know of at least one white man who had his Priesthood taken away because he was not entitled to it.

It's all sort of crazy - but I don't see societal pressures factoring into it at all.

That settles it. Literally no proof it's bad. And because sin only applies to those who believe in it then the point seems moot.

No - a person's opinion is never "moot".

The Mormons not being able to prove that masturbation is sinful does not matter.

If a member of their church is claiming otherwise and trying to lead other members to believe as she does - she can - and should be - subject to church discipline - even excommunication.

And not all "proof" is something that can be cited.

It's more than you've done.

I literally don't have to prove that masturbation is sinful in order to prove that the Mormon church is well within their rights to discipline this woman and condemn what she has been doing.

That's not even to mention their right to believe whatever they want about masturbation.

Just, wow. If he's ok with this then why harsh?
Why are Christians so obsessed with the sex lives of others?

Harsh? What are you talking about?

I have every right to feel bad for my friend who hasn't had sex in two decades.

And no - he is not "ok with this" - which is why he brought it up. He was complaining.

Men like having sex.

Do you have a crystal ball to know this for sure?
Of course not.

Your "extreme" side is coming out again.

You not believing that a father can find joy, peace and comfort from his children is an "extreme" viewpoint.

I know that's from another thread - but c'mon - its pretty extreme to me.

These degreed professionals did indeed state masturbation has some benefits, beyond just feeling good.

But you can get the same - and even more - benefits from having sex with your life mate.

They were talking about the effects of climax - not self-abuse.

Candy in moderation isn't bad for us. You can't engorge in it, but a piece every once in awhile is negligible on our healthn

But candy gives us no benefit.

Do tell me with your crystal ball how often I do it.

You claimed that you "typically" do it as you are going to bed.

And "typically" means "in most cases" or "usually".

Don't you go to bed every night? Doesn't this mean you do it most nights?

Seems he's more serious about "through sickness and health, till death do us part" than you are.

Really? What makes you say this?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You claimed that you "typically" do it as you are going to bed.

And "typically" means "in most cases" or "usually".

Don't you go to bed every night? Doesn't this mean you do it most nights?

No, that's just saying when I usually do it, not the frequency.

Really? What makes you say this?

Because you're creating an exception to give someone an out against an oath that was taken. It's not "we stay stay together as long as you remain healthy." No, it is sticking together through the good and the bad. That is unconditional love. That is part of the traditional wedding vows.

You not believing that a father can find joy, peace and comfort from his children is an "extreme" viewpoint.

I never claimed that. I merely challenged your claim it would help. You provides speculation, not evidence.

I don't know everything about the Mormons - but I do know that their doctrine never contained anything about black people being "bad".

They used to forbid black people from joining their clergy. This is a historic fact. It had entirely to do with skin color. In other words, a racist policy they couldn't defend any longer in a desegregated world where racism was becoming less tolerated.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's not even to mention their right to believe whatever they want about masturbation.

Beliefs that are unverifiable and have no supporting evidence are useless.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

No, that's just saying when I usually do it, not the frequency.

Aw - I see. My mistake - but you gotta admit that's a bit confusing.

You said, "I typically do it as I'm going to bed."

Imagine if someone said, "I typically eat a burger for lunch."

I would immediately think that they were saying that they usually eat a burger for lunch. Most of their lunches consist of burgers.

I can see how it could also mean that they tend to eat burgers only at lunch time - but that's not the first place I'd go.

Because you're creating an exception to give someone an out against an oath that was taken. It's not "we stay stay together as long as you remain healthy." No, it is sticking together through the good and the bad.

Oh - no - I never said this.

I said that I believe that he would be an exception to the rule concerning masturbation.

He is in a loving and committed relationship with his wife - but she won't have sex with him.

As far as I am concerned - he has every right to jerk his meat - because she's not going to do it for him.

I never said that he should leave his wife over that.

That is unconditional love. That is part of the traditional wedding vows.

Even though I agree that you should stick by your spouse - your love does not need to be unconditional - otherwise they will take advantage of you.

For example - if your spouse cheats on you - that may be grounds for divorce. I'm not saying that it has to be - but you'd be justified.

I never claimed that. I merely challenged your claim it would help. You provides speculation, not evidence.

Your assertion that I would need a crystal ball in order to predict that children tend to bring joy, comfort and peace to their parents stands in conflict with most of human history.

It is not speculation.

Most - not all - not all - most children make their parents happy - this is a fact.

Unfortunately - it is a fact that cannot be cited or proven because love and happiness cannot be cited or proven.

They used to forbid black people from joining their clergy.

I don't know if the term "clergy" applies to the Mormons - since all their members - including women - can be given religious duties - called "callings".

You are referring to the Priesthood Ban - where certain men of black African descent were denied the right to hold the Priesthood.

It appears that black Africans did hold the Priesthood at the start of the Mormon Church - back when other Christian churches were segregating their congregations by skin color.

It wasn't until decades later that the ban was put in place. I will quote a portion of an article I found,

"During the first two decades of the Church’s existence, a few black men were ordained to the priesthood. One of these men, Elijah Abel, also participated in temple ceremonies in Kirtland, Ohio, and was later baptized as proxy for deceased relatives in Nauvoo, Illinois. There is no reliable evidence that any black men were denied the priesthood during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. In a private Church council three years after Joseph Smith’s death, Brigham Young praised Q. Walker Lewis, a black man who had been ordained to the priesthood, saying, “We have one of the best Elders, an African.'

In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Race and the Priesthood (churchofjesuschrist.org)

So - this Brigham Young guy seemed to take no issue with black Africans or with black Africans holding the Priesthood until 1852.

I don't know why the ban was put into place - but claiming revelation is as good a reason as any.

This is a historic fact. It had entirely to do with skin color.

This is not accurate either.

Apparently - even after the ban was put in place - other dark-skinned men were allowed to receive the Priesthood.

The ban was placed only on a certain lineage that stemmed from Africa for some reason. I will quote from that same article again,

"Church President David O. McKay emphasized that the restriction extended only to men of black African descent. The Church had always allowed Pacific Islanders to hold the priesthood, and President McKay clarified that black Fijians and Australian Aborigines could also be ordained to the priesthood and instituted missionary work among them."

In other words, a racist policy they couldn't defend any longer in a desegregated world where racism was becoming less tolerated.

The Civil Rights Movement ended in 1964 - but the Mormon Church did not rescind the ban until 1978.

They believed that revelation was needed.

Beliefs that are unverifiable and have no supporting evidence are useless.

That's a sad way to live. You'll never find love and happiness if you believe this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Aw - I see. My mistake - but you gotta admit that's a bit confusing.

There was nothing confusing if you carefully read it, because I gave no indication of frequency.

Your assertion that I would need a crystal ball in order to predict that children tend to bring joy, comfort and peace to their parents stands in conflict with most of human history.

It is not speculation.

Yeah, it is, because it doesn't bring all parents joy and happiness.

This is not accurate either.

It is a fact they prohibited black men from the clergy.
Mormon church explains defunct ban on blacks in priesthood

They believed that revelation was needed.

Because they had a racist and outdated policy and needed something to desperately save face.

That's a sad way to live. You'll never find love and happiness if you believe this.

I have found love and happiness.
I still have no need for superstitions and beliefs that have no real evidence to support them.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

There was nothing confusing if you carefully read it, because I gave no indication of frequency.

I not only read it - but I quoted it back to you.

The word "typically" means both "usually" or "in most cases".

typically - Google Search

I understand that I got it wrong though.

Yeah, it is, because it doesn't bring all parents joy and happiness.

Why are you talking about "all" when I said "most"?

I understand that you have an extreme view about having children - but it is extreme - most people don't share that view.

Most parents love their children and receive joy, peace and comfort from them.

Besides - I actually knew this guy - you didn't - so I can say with certainty that he would have liked to have had children and they would have made him happy.

It is a fact they prohibited black men from the clergy.
Mormon church explains defunct ban on blacks in priesthood

Yeah - this article quotes from the same essay I quoted from earlier.

Why don't you go straight to the source for your information? Why don't you actually read my posts?

You need someone to "filter" this information for you? Or you only read sources that are biased in your direction on an issue?

The Mormon Church did prohibit black Africans only - not all black-skinned people - from holding the Priesthood and participating in certain ordinances found in their temples.

I believe that black Mormons were "called" and "set apart" to perform certain duties - which could make them teachers - which is the definition of "clergy". I may be wrong about that though.

And this article you reference is very misleading too.

For example, the article claims that the essay explained that the Priesthood Ban "was rooted in the racism of the times" - but it never said that.

The essay claimed that there were many theories and justifications made by Mormon leaders in attempts to explain the ban - but they were not the official doctrine of the Mormon Church - because no one knew the exact reason for the ban.

The article quotes this portion of the essay, "The justifications for this restriction echoed the widespread ideas about racial inferiority that had been used to argue for the legalization of black “servitude”"

Yet - the article fails to point out that this statement is about the "justifications" (i.e. the "theories) had by Mormon leaders - not the ban itself - for which they had no explanation.

The article makes it clear that it is trying to use this statement to make the case that the ban was "rooted in the racism of the times" when it said,

"In the past, Mormon church leaders have said history provided no clear explanation for the prohibition that barred black men from ordination to the lay priesthood and prevented black men and women from participating in sacred temple rites." (Bold and italics added)

That is true - they did so in the past - but they still do so today.

The Mormon Church has always maintained that they do not know when the ban was issued and for what reason - outside it being a revelation from God.

The article is straight up lying.

Because they had a racist and outdated policy and needed something to desperately save face.

How does waiting fourteen years after the Civil Rights Act "save face"?

I have found love and happiness.
I still have no need for superstitions and beliefs that have no real evidence to support them.

You hate your own parents. You don't want any children and you don't believe that children bring happiness to their parents. You can't stand people disagreeing with you.

I don't know - maybe you need some religion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The word "typically" means both "usually" or "in most cases".

Yeah, but in the context used it doesn't denote frequency.

You can't stand people disagreeing with you.

You don't think this has anything to do with you calling views extreme?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Yeah, but in the context used it doesn't denote frequency.

You don't think this has anything to do with you calling views extreme?

This is so funny.

I have already claimed that I was wrong twice about what you said while still pointing out the definition for the word "typically".

I have admitted that I was wrong - and you cannot let it go. You refuse to see the issue from my side - how there could have been some ambiguity in what you said.

And now you claim that the only reason you can't stand me disagreeing with you is because I believe you hold an extreme viewpoint.

You literally cannot admit that you using the word "typically" could lead to confusion - which is such a minor disagreement - yet you argue that the only reason you can't stand my disagreeing with you is because I believe you have an extreme viewpoint about having kids?

You understand how you just proved that you cannot stand when someone disagrees with you while simultaneously trying to deny that you do that in one "fell swoop" don't you?

None of this matters anyway.

I only came back to this thread because I wanted to tell you about my change in reasoning concerning masturbation.

And it led to you spreading all kinds of lies about what the Mormon Church has done and said.

I'm done here.

 

[Watchmen]

That is your opinion - and a very uninformed one at that.

I don't know everything about the Mormons - but I do know that their doctrine never contained anything about black people being "bad".

They believe that the Priesthood can be given to any worthy male - but not every worthy male is "entitled" to it - meaning that there are times certain worthy males could be denied the privilege.

I mean - this stuff is right out of the Bible too - only the sons of Aaron and Levi had the right to the Priesthood - even though certain men from other tribes were given it from time to time.

Black Mormons were never denied baptism or other saving ordinances. They were never denied admittance into worship services.

Just - for some reason - which they claim was "revelation" - they decided to begin a ban.

Before the ban - many black men had been given the Priesthood and I know of at least one white man who had his Priesthood taken away because he was not entitled to it.

It's all sort of crazy - but I don't see societal pressures factoring into it at all.

No - a person's opinion is never "moot".

The Mormons not being able to prove that masturbation is sinful does not matter.

If a member of their church is claiming otherwise and trying to lead other members to believe as she does - she can - and should be - subject to church discipline - even excommunication.

And not all "proof" is something that can be cited.

I literally don't have to prove that masturbation is sinful in order to prove that the Mormon church is well within their rights to discipline this woman and condemn what she has been doing.

That's not even to mention their right to believe whatever they want about masturbation.

Harsh? What are you talking about?

I have every right to feel bad for my friend who hasn't had sex in two decades.

And no - he is not "ok with this" - which is why he brought it up. He was complaining.

Men like having sex.

Your "extreme" side is coming out again.

You not believing that a father can find joy, peace and comfort from his children is an "extreme" viewpoint.

I know that's from another thread - but c'mon - its pretty extreme to me.

But you can get the same - and even more - benefits from having sex with your life mate.

They were talking about the effects of climax - not self-abuse.

But candy gives us no benefit.

You claimed that you "typically" do it as you are going to bed.

And "typically" means "in most cases" or "usually".

Don't you go to bed every night? Doesn't this mean you do it most nights?

Really? What makes you say this?

It’s so evident you know nothing about Mormons and blacks. Can I ask how old you are?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

It’s so evident you know nothing about Mormons and blacks. Can I ask how old you are?

Rather claiming that I am ignorant and asking my age - which is irrelevant to being informed - why not back up what you have said?

Prove that what I have said is wrong.

Where in Mormon doctrine does it claim that all Black people are "bad"?

Where in Mormon doctrine does it claim that all worthy men are entitled to the Priesthood?

Does the Bible not record God restricting the Priesthood to only certain men in ancient Israel?

Were Black Mormons denied baptism? The gift of the Holy Ghost? Partaking of the Sacrament? Access to Sunday services?

Did Mormon doctrine claim that Black people were denied salvation?

Do not Mormons claim that revelation began and ended the ban?

Were not Black Mormon men given the Priesthood before the ban?

 

[Watchmen]

Rather claiming that I am ignorant and asking my age - which is irrelevant to being informed - why not back up what you have said?

Prove that what I have said is wrong.

Where in Mormon doctrine does it claim that all Black people are "bad"?

Where in Mormon doctrine does it claim that all worthy men are entitled to the Priesthood?

Does the Bible not record God restricting the Priesthood to only certain men in ancient Israel?

Were Black Mormons denied baptism? The gift of the Holy Ghost? Partaking of the Sacrament? Access to Sunday services?

Did Mormon doctrine claim that Black people were denied salvation?

Do not Mormons claim that revelation began and ended the ban?

Were not Black Mormon men given the Priesthood before the ban?

What’s fascinating is that your questions reinforce the racist history of Mormonism, and you don’t even realize it.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

What’s fascinating is that your questions reinforce the racist history of Mormonism, and you don’t even realize it.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I'm still waiting for you to prove that I "know nothing about Mormons and blacks" - as you stated earlier.

 

[Jane.Doe]

@Shadow Wolf , I have been away from this conversation. I am trying to catch up, but I struggle reading conversations with a lot of one-line paragraphs. Did you have any specific points you want me to address?

 

[Watchmen]

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

I'm still waiting for you to prove that I "know nothing about Mormons and blacks" - as you stated earlier.

Your posts speak for themselves and are proof enough.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Your posts speak for themselves and are proof enough.

Wow. I guess you showed me.

 

[Watchmen]

Wow. I guess you showed me.

Oh. You’re back. How lovely. What topic of Mormon nonsense would you like to debate? Joseph Smith’s polygamy? Joseph Smith’s plagiarism? The Book of Abraham? Sex abuse in the Mormon church?

you pick.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Oh. You’re back. How lovely. What topic of Mormon nonsense would you like to debate? Joseph Smith’s polygamy? Joseph Smith’s plagiarism? The Book of Abraham? Sex abuse in the Mormon church?

you pick.

Why do that when I'm still waiting for you to prove that I "know nothing about Mormons and blacks"?

If all you got to offer to "back up" your claims is "You answer proves me right" - without any explanation - then I don't think you are capable of having any sort of discussion.