mormonism racist?

[Katzpur]

little joseph also had an obsession with using the king james bible derived phrases "AND IT CAME TO PASS..." and "EXCEEDINGLY (SORE)"

in fact, he used "it came to pass" close to 1300 times .... thats 3 times as often as in the bible although the bible is nearly 5 times as big as the bom. talk about overkill.

here is an article on it

Dwindling In Unbelief: And it came to pass

This would be a good topic for another discussion, but I can't figure out what on earth it has to do with racism. Or do you just make a habit of hijacking your own threads?

 

[tomasortega]

This would be a good topic for another discussion, but I can't figure out what on earth it has to do with racism. Or do you just make a habit of hijacking your own threads?

well other members on this thread were pointing out how joseph liked to use 16th or 17th century english, so my last post goes along with that, offering some insight into his obsession with the king james version of the bible

but hey, maybe you would like to join in on the conversation im having with your "mentor"?

 

[DeepShadow]

i never set out to prove the bible is racist so as to tie it to mormonism. a family is not a race. sounds more like an aristocracy to me.

Thank you.

loooool once again you prove my point. its all about skin pigmentation. the book of mormon portrays god to have a skin fetish. if you are a bad little human, god throws a tantrum and changes your skin color.

Read it again: there is NO correlation between behavior and skin color. There are good people and bad people in both groups, evenly distributed.

well thank you very much. so then you agree. the book of mormon is racist. thats what this thread is all about.

So you can't distinguish between a racist narrator and a racist book? Huck Finn teaches that people are the same inside, despite having a racist narrator. Is Huck Finn racist?

2. you say god turned a whole tribe of white people black.....do you actually believe this nonsense?? please be honest. do you believe white people can miraculously turn black and vice versa?

I said no such thing. In fact, I've claimed on this very thread that the skin change was probably not the work of God directly. All you are proving is that you can't read.

3.then you go further and explain that the reason god turned them black is so they look UGLY and FILTHY and unappealing to the BEAUTIFUL white believing folks and wont intermarry. AS if everyone in the world knows and agrees that dark skinned people are butt ugly while light skinned people are, to quote the book of mormon "beautiful and delightsome"

I said nothing about ugliness. Please point out where I said anything about attraction. Once again, you fail to read critically.

God says, "Don't marry unbelievers."

Man says, "What do unbelievers look like?"

God says, "Their skin is a different color than yours."

At which point, Man tells his people that God changed the unbelievers so that their skin was dark. For good measure, Man throws in stuff about them being unattractive. Apparently this Man has the same problem with jumping to conclusions that you do.

4. finally you top it all off with "but hey, God doesn't care about skin color. He cares about what is in your heart." im at a loss for words.

All evidence to the contrary. Please explain, if there are good and bad people in this story, evenly mixed between light and dark, how can this justify a claim that a) dark skinned people are evil, or b) God curses people with dark skin when they are evil?

 

[DeepShadow]

At the point where you can be a Carderist but not share full Carderism, because you're the wrong race.

All the blessings of Carderism are available to everyone. They just can't be priests unless they tie their line back to Cardero. They can be baptized, confirmed, take the sacrament, be blessed, get married and everything else. They just need a Carderist to officiate.

 

[maklelan]

little joseph also had an obsession with using the king james bible derived phrases "AND IT CAME TO PASS..." and "EXCEEDINGLY (SORE)"

in fact, he used "it came to pass" close to 1300 times .... thats 3 times as often as in the bible although the bible is nearly 5 times as big as the bom. talk about overkill.

here is an article on it

Dwindling In Unbelief: And it came to pass

"Exceedingly" is a 19th century rendering of a Hebrew literary technique whereby an infinitive and a finite conjugation of the same verb appear next to each other. In the KJV it is translated with "surely," "exceedingly," and with a few other auxiliary adverbs. Joseph Smith just used one method of translation, rather than several, which your search evidently wasn't aware of. The Book of Mormon use is not inappropriately dense.

"And it came to pass" is a literal translation of the Hebrew wayehi, which appears about 800 times in the Hebrew Bible, which is not quite 1/3 of 1,300. Your article doesn't take that into account when it searches only for the phrase "it came to pass" in the KJV. Since the Book of Mormon is almost exclusively narrative (where this phrase is common), and very rarely poetic (where it is not used), the frequency is not aberrant (the Hebrew Bible is largely poetic). The article you cited also claims "and it came to pass" indicates a paragraph change, which is false. He cites Alma 47:11 as an example where it is used three times in one paragraph. The author expresses shock that Joseph Smith thought the verse should have been split into three paragraphs. Genesis 39, however, is divided into three paragraphs in modern translations and yet contains fifteen uses of the phrase. That's almost twice as frequent as the use in Alma. I've gone ahead and commented on that blog, as well. We'll see if the author lets it through.

You're just commenting ignorantly on situations about which you know incredibly little, but since it seems to you to support your dogmas, you're more than happy to sling them around indiscriminantly. If anything, it shows the Book of Mormon is closer to Hebrew literary form than to the KJV. I'll save you some trouble and let you not to bother commenting on literary aspects of the Book of Mormon. It's not going to get you anywhere.

 

[maklelan]

well other members on this thread were pointing out how joseph liked to use 16th or 17th century english,

17th century English. Please get it right.

so my last post goes along with that, offering some insight into his obsession with the king james version of the bible

I wouldn't call it insight so much as naive wishful thinking.

 

[Watchmen]

The title of this thread is "mormonism racist?" The debate focuses on the history of the Church, but I'm wondering, regardless of whether mormonism was racist in the past, is it racist today?

 

[Katzpur]

well other members on this thread were pointing out how joseph liked to use 16th or 17th century english, so my last post goes along with that, offering some insight into his obsession with the king james version of the bible

Which version would you suggest he might have been "obsessed with" instead? So anyway, since you evidently see the language of the Book of Mormon to be problematic, why don't you start a thread explaining why.

but hey, maybe you would like to join in on the conversation im having with your "mentor"?

No thanks. I already said everything I have to say on the subject. My comments are all a number of pages back. Unlike a few other people on this forum, I've never been big on saying the same thing over and over again. Besides, DeepShadow seems to be addressing your accusations very adequately without my help. It may sound trite to you for me to say he is my mentor, but when it comes to debating, he definitely is. The fact that we share the same religious beliefs is just an added bonus. There is not a more skilled debater on this forum.

 

[tomasortega]

deepshadow: "Read it again: there is NO correlation between behavior and skin color."

you really dont see a correlation, do you?

Most righteous (BEHAVIOR)-People of Ammon---dark skinned(SKIN COLOR)
Most wicked-(BEHAVIOR)--Gadianton robbers---light skinned(SKIN COLOR)


2 NEPHI 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. BEHAVIOR For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, BEHAVIOR that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white SKIN COLOR!!, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness SKIN COLOR to come upon them


3 NEPHI
2:14 It came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites;
2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; ( THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SKIN COLOR AS A RESULT OF CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR??????????? NO CORRELATION THERE RIGHT???)

MORMON HISTORY 1O1: all Negroes (and even whites with Negro blood) were banned from the Mormon priesthood and temples for 130 years (1848-1978)

YEP, NO RACISM THERE. RIGHT DEEPSHADOW?


here is gordon hinckley's(former LDS PRESIDENT) explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_KERZlwOXM&feature=related


are you really that dull or just playing hard to get? because you will always be able to talk your way out of a corner on a public forum, no doubt. question is, after all is said and done, how will your conscience treat you?? because i know or at least hope that you are too smart to have deluded yourself into believing that the book of mormon authored by a racist, with its obvious skin color obsession is not in fact racist, as it appears, but rather loving and inclusive.

step 1. you have already admitted that the bom's author was a self proclaimed white racist.

step 2. you read that white racist's fictional writings on how white people were cursed with black skin for behaving badly. you also read that racist author's description of how white skin is "delightsome" and black skin is "loathsome" among other nasty descriptions. AS A BONUS YOU ALSO KNOW ABOUT MORMON HISTORY AND HOW BLACKS WERE BANNED FROM PRIESTHOOD AND TEMPLES TILL THE SHAME WAS JUST TOO BIG TO BEAR IN 1978 and damage control had to be done to save face from the surrounding world.

step 3. rather than using basic common sense,and putting 1 and 1 together, you live in denial and claim that a white racist's writing's describing filthy, loathsome black skin as god's curse on naughty white folk, has absolutely nothing to do with racism, but rather shows god's love and acceptance of everyone??? really?

and before i take apart the rest of your post ill stop wasting my time right here.....believe what you want. its your life. waste it away praying and believing in some racist putz's supposed revelations for all i care. hey,there is a scheister down in south america claiming to be jesus. hes gotten quite popular too, you might want to give him a shot while youre at it, but behold it might come to pass that his skin is a little on the darker side . have a good one now.

 

[Watchmen]

You just said the most wicked were light skinned and the most righteous were dark skinned. Are you claiming early Mormons engaged in reverse discrimination?

 

[tomasortega]

You just said the most wicked were light skinned and the most righteous were dark skinned. Are you claiming early Mormons engaged in reverse discrimination?

i was taking his word for it. i havent personally studied the bom, so there might be different interpretations on the tribes, whose very existence cant be proven in the first place... but going by actual traceable mormon history and the verses ive provided there is no doubt it was white on black racism. racism as a whole and obsession over skin color however is present regardless.

my challenge to you as a mormon is to show me how mormonism is not racist. unless you agree and admit to your church's racist past.

 

[Watchmen]

i was taking his word for it. i havent personally studied the bom, so there might be different interpretations on the tribes, whose very existence cant be proven in the first place... but going by actual traceable mormon history and the verses ive provided there is no doubt it was white on black racism. racism as a whole and obsession over skin color however is present regardless.

my challenge to you as a mormon is to show me how mormonism is not racist. unless you agree and admit to your church's racist past.

So, which is it? Racism or reverse-racism?

 

[tomasortega]

So, which is it? Racism or reverse-racism?

racism and reverse-racism are both forms of RACISM ....... given actual traceable mormon history and the general trend of the book of mormon written by a self proclaimed white racist, it is white on black racism. i will have to personally read the bom, but from what i can tell, the so called "righteous" ammonites were only considered righteous because they converted to the white nephite religion.

here is an interesting video of a mormon preacher trying to explain things away.


YouTube - Racist LDS Mormons Preach the Curse of Black Skin to Muslims

 

[maklelan]

my challenge to you as a mormon is to show me how mormonism is not racist. unless you agree and admit to your church's racist past.

Oh, sure, the church's past was definitely racist by today's standards. By the standards of the day, however, it was nothing unusual. I hope you don't intend to make the blatantly presentistic argument that today's morality can and should be used as the interpretive framework for analyzing 19th century race relations.

I believe Brigham Young was a little overzealous with his priesthood ban, and I know for a fact that most leaders of the church wanted to get rid of it for quite some time. They weren't going to act until they felt inspired to do so by God, however, and that didn't happen, for whatever reason, until 1978.

Would you mind responding to my previous comments regarding "It came to pass"? I'd really hate to find out you're just regurgitating whatever bigotry you can find on the internet and waiting to see what sticks. That's not really how an honest and integral person debates, and I would expect one who shows so much indignation about morality to be somewhat above that kind of infantile behavior. Are you above it, or not?

 

[maklelan]

given actual traceable mormon history and the general trend of the book of mormon written by a self proclaimed white racist,

Wait a minute. I thought you just said you've never personally studied the Book of Mormon. Do you mean to tell me these accusations are just what you've heard other people say? You don't know that any of this is actually accurate?

it is white on black racism. i will have to personally read the bom, but from what i can tell, the so called "righteous" ammonites were only considered righteous because they converted to the white nephite religion.

Actually Heleman 7:24 explains that the Nephites are going to be destroyed for being unrighteous, and that the Lamanites are going to be shown mercy for being more righteous. Jacob 3:5 says the same. It has nothing to do with converting, but only with their fidelity to their own morality.

The primary responsibility of the Nephites was to avoid assimilation into the culture of the indigenous tribes. They were commanded not to intermarry. The description of the skin color change is an interpretation of the intermarriages that took place between Nephites and Lamanites, which obviously produced children that were darker skinned than the Nephites. It explains that the dark skin was removed from those who "united" with the Nephites, or intermarried with them. After a few generations, the skin of their children would have become much lighter. Keep in mind, as well, the designation ""Lamanite" was not an ethnic designation, but rather an ideological one. One author in the Book of Mormon explains that he will call all those people opposed to the Nephites, Lamanites. And all those people sympathetic toward the Nephites, Nephites.

This is far more complicated than you appear aware, and I have serious doubts about your willingness to make yourself fully aware at the risk of losing your indignation.

here is an interesting video of a mormon preacher trying to explain things away.

YouTube - Racist LDS Mormons Preach the Curse of Black Skin to Muslims

I don't see anything objectionable in that video. The men in that video are not racist. They're obviously trying to explain that the racist ideologies were the result of misinterpration and assumption. I'd go point by point through the video, but I don't think you'd respond, and it would waste a lot of my time.

 

[Autodidact]

All the blessings of Carderism are available to everyone. They just can't be priests unless they tie their line back to Cardero. They can be baptized, confirmed, take the sacrament, be blessed, get married and everything else. They just need a Carderist to officiate.

Is this supposed to be an analogy for Mormonism? Doesn't Mormonism welcome converts? And all male converts have been able to become priests except, until recently, Black ones?

 

[Watchmen]

racism and reverse-racism are both forms of RACISM ....... given actual traceable mormon history and the general trend of the book of mormon written by a self proclaimed white racist, it is white on black racism. i will have to personally read the bom, but from what i can tell, the so called "righteous" ammonites were only considered righteous because they converted to the white nephite religion.

here is an interesting video of a mormon preacher trying to explain things away.


YouTube - Racist LDS Mormons Preach the Curse of Black Skin to Muslims

So, it's white on black racism, but you admitted in your previous post that the dark skinnned people were the most righteous and the fair skinned people the most wicked. How does that work?

 

[DeepShadow]

Is this supposed to be an analogy for Mormonism? Doesn't Mormonism welcome converts? And all male converts have been able to become priests except, until recently, Black ones?

Actually, it's an analogy for the Tribes of Israel. Only one tribe (Levites) could be priests, and they served the other 11.

 

[idea]

Testimonies | Blacklds.org

1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy.
1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1900: Enoch Abel, the son of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1935: Elijah Abel, grandson of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1958: All black Melanesians (Fijians) are given the priesthood (blacks in the Philippines even earlier)
1978: Revelation on Priesthood gives the priesthood to all worthy men regardless of color.
1990: Helvecio Martins becomes black General Authority Seventy.
Additional blacks were ordained in the early years of the church.


http://www.blacklds.org/tvedtnes

 

[DeepShadow]

deepshadow: "Read it again: there is NO correlation between behavior and skin color."

you really dont see a correlation, do you?

Most righteous (BEHAVIOR)-People of Ammon---dark skinned(SKIN COLOR)
Most wicked-(BEHAVIOR)--Gadianton robbers---light skinned(SKIN COLOR)

...do you know what a "correlation" is? It's a continuous relationship. This one isn't continuous. As people get more wicked, they aren't getting darker or lighter. On the contrary, if the God of the Book of Mormon was as obsessed with skin color as you say He is, He would have cursed the Amlicites, the Amulonites, and many others. He also would have lightened the skin of the people of Ammon.

For an example of a correlation, consider age and shoe size in children. There's a strong correlation: as one goes up, the other goes up. If shoe size went up, then down, then up again in some kids, and the reverse in others, and stayed constant in others, there would be no correlation.

That's what's going on in the Book of Mormon: one group turns darker when they get wicked. Five other groups do not. One group turns lighter when they get righteous. Two others do not. Hence, no correlation.

Note that I don't have to prove that any of these tribes existed either, because we're talking about the contents/message of the Book. Whether these tribes lived is a matter of debate for another thread. That the Book of Mormon speaks about them is an objective fact.

MORMON HISTORY 1O1: all Negroes (and even whites with Negro blood) were banned from the Mormon priesthood and temples for 130 years (1848-1978)

YEP, NO RACISM THERE. RIGHT DEEPSHADOW?

You are not entitled to speak for me. Ask me a question if you want to know my thoughts on the priesthood ban.

step 1. you have already admitted that the bom's author was a self proclaimed white racist.

Only as far as you have admitted that you can't read. Go back and read it again until you can parse "author" from "narrator," "author" from "authors," "white" from "light skinned," and allow for racism as a continuum.