Mosaic law still present?

[IndigoChild5559]

The Maccabees were a group of Jewish rebel warriors who took control of Judea, which at the time was part of the Seleucid Empire.

They founded the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled from 167 BCE to 37 BCE, being a fully independent kingdom from about 110 to 63 BCE.

They reasserted the Jewish religion, partly by forced conversion, expanded the boundaries of Judea by conquest and reduced the influence of Hellenism and Hellenistic Judaism. wiki

My question is did they also assert control over Samaria and the areas of Galilee and the Decapolis?

Galilee: yes. Galilee was converted involuntarily to Judaism.
Samaria: Samaria was a different religion: Samaritanism.
Decapolis: I have no idea. Never heard of this area until I started chatting with you. I don't believe it was part of the area traditionally associated with the rule of Herod, is it? You probably know more about this than I do.

 

[sooda]

Galilee: yes. Galilee was converted involuntarily to Judaism.
Samaria: Samaria was a different religion: Samaritanism.
Decapolis: I have no idea. Never heard of this area until I started chatting with you. I don't believe it was part of the area traditionally associated with the rule of Herod, is it? You probably know more about this than I do.

Just as an FYI.

Palaestina Prima consisted of Judea, Samaria, the Paralia, and Peraea with the governor residing in Caesarea.

Palaestina Secunda consisted of the Galilee, the lower Jezreel Valley, the regions east of Galilee, and the western part of the former Decapolis with the seat of government at Scythopolis.

 

[oldbadger]

Well, I just gave you "other writings". I guess you will have to stick with this "other writing". And you didn't stick with the "gospels", you ad-libbed..

No...
I take notice of archeology.
I take notice of other writings from that time, or just after.
I take notice of the gospels.

You do it your way. I'll do it mine.

 

[oldbadger]

What was the real name of Judas?

I woke up to 15 attacking posts from RF members this morning.
I just want to clear out the trouble I've got on my hands first!

I will start a thread about the name 'Judas' in a few days. But while I get ready for that, have a look through the Old Testament for the name 'Judas'...... you won;'t find it.

See what you can discover about him from his nickname, his Dad's name, his abilities, etc........... the trip might amaze you if you have not already done this.

He was a worse apple than even Christians think.

 

[oldbadger]

I like that map..... have copied it to my files. Thankyou.
Of course, other members will say that the name Palestine is wrong, but so far nobody has suggested another name flor Herod's Kingdom (other than Israel).

Let's see what they come up with?

 

[oldbadger]

There is no word.

Are you trying to tell us that Herod didn't cal;l his entire Kingdom by a name?
Are you suggesting that the Romans, even the Syrian Legate, didn't call Herod's old Kingdom by a name?

But I can tell you this....... it certainly wasn't Judea.
And it held Jewish Priests, although most were around the Temple.

Have you studied this time period?

 

[oldbadger]

It certainly wasn't called Palestine.

Since thousands, millions of bibles call it 'Palestine', and many folks call it 'Israel'...... it looks as if you'll just have to put up with such names.

Certainly Herod called his Kingdom a name.

In future, in posts to you, when referring to the whole country of Jewish provinces in the early 1st century, please allow me to call the whole lot 'Herod's old place'.

HOP for short!

 

[sooda]

I woke up to 15 attacking posts from RF members this morning.
I just want to clear out the trouble I've got on my hands first!

I will start a thread about the name 'Judas' in a few days. But while I get ready for that, have a look through the Old Testament for the name 'Judas'...... you won;'t find it.

See what you can discover about him from his nickname, his Dad's name, his abilities, etc........... the trip might amaze you if you have not already done this.

He was a worse apple than even Christians think.

The father of Judas seems to be named Simon..

Be careful with the name Iscariot . The term Sicarii is actually Greek and means “assassins” or “daggermen.” because the Sicarii carried curved daggers that they used to kill Romans.

Most scholars think the Sicarrii show up around 50 AD so Judas would have been too early to have been a Sicarrii.

 

[metis]

I don't believe the gospels support Jesus walking away from the Law. "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

I don't have much time as I previously mentioned, but you might check out some of the references to the Law ending here: Bible, Revised Standard Version [scroll down and you'll see references to the Law ending]

Also, the concept of Jesus' "fulfilling the Law" is problematic, especially since there are numerous verses whereas he negates the letter of the Law.

In essence, what I do believe Jesus was saying is that belief and love are the entire basis of the Law, therefore what's found in the letter of the Law is of lesser importance. This is where he and Hillel appear to separate, imo.

 

[pearl]

Ya, but Jesus went well beyond Hillel, as the latter certainly would not agree with Jesus' watering down and then walking away from the Law, which is what happened

Referring to the 'Sermon on the Mount' it sees to me that Jesus did not 'water down' the Law, but demanded more.

Also, the concept of Jesus' "fulfilling the Law" is problematic, especially since there are numerous verses whereas he negates the letter of the Law.

The notion of fulfilment is an extremely complex one,42 one that could easily be distorted if there is a unilateral insistence either on continuity or discontinuity. Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfilment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence.43 Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance; he fills them with a new reality; one can even speak in this connection of a “new creation”.44 It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.
excerpt from "The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scripture in the Christian Bible"

 

[metis]

Referring to the 'Sermon on the Mount' it sees to me that Jesus did not 'water down' the Law, but demanded more.

That can be played both ways, but my reference is to the observance of the 613 Commandments found in Torah that the Church gradually walked away from, and I cannot in any way picture the apostles and their appointees allowing this to happen without Jesus having opened that door, intentionally or not.

For example, Peter's vision that led to the Church no longer teaching that the kosher Laws must be observed is a case in point. How could the apostles do that if Jesus had not said things to lead to that being done? Also, check the verses on the "Law" that I linked to earlier and you'll see several on the "end of the Law".

So, in the observance of the letter of the Law, there definitely was a liberalizing of that that took place, and the apostles I am quite certain they would not have done that entirely on their own. OTOH, certain aspects of the Law were even toughened, such as his teachings on divorce and "lust".

The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.
excerpt from "The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scripture in the Christian Bible"

Thanks, and let me just say that this is also what Aquinas believed. Also, "Jerome's Bible Commentary" concludes the same thing.

 

[oldbadger]

The father of Judas seems to be named Simon..

Be careful with the name Iscariot . The term Sicarii is actually Greek and means “assassins” or “daggermen.” because the Sicarii carried curved daggers that they used to kill Romans.

Most scholars think the Sicarrii show up around 50 AD so Judas would have been too early to have been a Sicarrii.

Very good.
I would like to start a thread about this and will copy you in at the OP.

Give me a day to collect my files, please.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just as an FYI.

Palaestina Prima consisted of Judea, Samaria, the Paralia, and Peraea with the governor residing in Caesarea.

Palaestina Secunda consisted of the Galilee, the lower Jezreel Valley, the regions east of Galilee, and the western part of the former Decapolis with the seat of government at Scythopolis.

sooda, you are apply terms that didn't exist until after the Second Temple period. The term Palestine was invented by the Romans after the destruction of Jerusalm. I'm shocked that you don't know this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are you trying to tell us that Herod didn't cal;l his entire Kingdom by a name?
Are you suggesting that the Romans, even the Syrian Legate, didn't call Herod's old Kingdom by a name?

But I can tell you this....... it certainly wasn't Judea.
And it held Jewish Priests, although most were around the Temple.

Have you studied this time period?

Whatever the name was, it was not Palestine.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Since thousands, millions of bibles call it 'Palestine', and many folks call it 'Israel'...... it looks as if you'll just have to put up with such names.

Certainly Herod called his Kingdom a name.

In future, in posts to you, when referring to the whole country of Jewish provinces in the early 1st century, please allow me to call the whole lot 'Herod's old place'.

HOP for short!

After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Romans invented the name of Palestine to label the territory (not nation). Until 1948, that territory has been occupied by one power after another. It has never been a nation.

 

[sooda]

sooda, you are apply terms that didn't exist until after the Second Temple period. The term Palestine was invented by the Romans after the destruction of Jerusalm. I'm shocked that you don't know this.

Herodotus wrote about Syria-Palestine in 500 BC. Palestine was a province of Syria.

 

[sooda]

Herodotus, Palestine and the Jews



Why answer them?

Very simply: the objections that are used by Christians and jews alike tend to place the jews at the very centre of the world and as such place them on a proverbial pedestal of being a key and influential historical nation.

However if we strip that away and we find little mention of the jews in Herodotus then their supposed pivotal importance in ancient history becomes downgraded to a mere tribal curiosity.

Let us begin with the mentions that Herodotus makes of Palestine and then work through what it does in fact tell us as opposed to what it doesn't. To wit:

'The Scythians next turned their attention to Egypt, but were met in Palestine by Psammetichus the Egyptian king, who by earnest entreaties supported by bribery managed to prevent their further advance. They withdrew by way of Ascalan in Syria.

The bulk of the army passed the town without doing any damage, but a small number of men got left behind and robbed the temple of Aphrodite Urania – the most ancient, I am told, of all the temples of this goddess. The one in Cyprus the Cyprians themselves admit was derived from it, and the one in Cythera was built by the Phoenicians, who belong to this part of Syria.

The Scythians who robbed the temple at Ascalan were punished by the goddess with the infliction of what is called the 'female disease', and their descendants still suffer from it.

This is the reason the Scythians give for this mysterious complaint, and travelers to the country can see what it is like. The Scythians call those who suffer from it 'Enarees'.' (1)

snip

The Egyptians did, however, say that they thought the original Colchians were men from Sesostris' army. My own idea on the subject was based first on the fact that they have black skins and woolly hair (not that that amounts to much, as other nations have the same), and secondly, and more especially, on the fact that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians are the only races which from ancient times have practised circumcision.

The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves admit that they learned the practice from Egypt, and the Syrians who live near the rivers Thermodon and Parthenius, as well as their neighbours the Macronians, say that they learnt it only a short time ago from the Colchians.

No other nations use circumcision, and all these are without doubt following the Egyptian lead.

As between the Egyptians and the Ethiopians, I cannot say which learn from the other, for the custom is evidentially a very ancient one; but I have no doubt that the other nations adopted it as the result of their intercourse with Egypt, and in this belief I am strongly supported by the fact that Phoenicians who have contact with Greece drop the Egyptian usage, and allow their children to go uncircumcised.' (2)

continued

Semitic Controversies: Herodotus, Palestine and the Jews

 

[oldbadger]

After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Romans invented the name of Palestine to label the territory (not nation). Until 1948, that territory has been occupied by one power after another. It has never been a nation.

Your post, above, refers to periods after the early 1st century. Obviously you are trying to explain that the Kingdom of Herod was not called Palestine, but you haven't offered any other name.

I notice in the post below yours that a member is proposing that the name Palestine existed in 500BC.

Is this a political issue for you, or an historical one?

I notice that in your bpost to another member that you felt that although maybe priests outside of Judea might have become Hellenised, that the main priesthood had remained firm in their believe in their G-d Jehovah? Or something like that?

This cannot be correct. The Temple was filled with graven images, and images of Melgarth Heracles (Baal) and every man who entered the Temple had to handle both because these images were struck on to the Temple coinage, the half and full shekels.
The Priesthood was accused by the Baptist of being a bunch of vipers, and he was short-circuiting funds to the Temple by redeeming sins of all and any who passed by for free, thus cutting out the services of the Jerusalem locals (no wonder they greeted the visitors with palm fronds and flowers!) and the whole Temple money-go-round. Hence Antipas was instructed to send out for his arrest.

The priesthood didn't care about the invader's insults as long as they were ok, and if there is a word for quisling in Hebrew, than the Baptist was no doubt applying it.

Jesus also called for 'Mercy and not Sacrifice'

Ergo........ as can happen in any lands or cultures, the leaders (at that time) had become corrupted.

 

[sooda]

The Scythians (Magog) invaded in 624 BC.

Remember Scythian mercenaries who settled in Scythopolis as veterans.

Pliny The Elder (d. A.D. 79)

Pliny the Elder, a first-century Roman military commander, author, naturalist and philosopher, referred to the Turkish city of Hieropolis as the heartland of Magog. Hierapolis was an ancient Greco-Roman city in Phyrgia near Laodicea.

Hieropolis was also known as Scythopolis, (City of Scythes) which the peoples of that day referred to as Magog.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Also, the concept of Jesus' "fulfilling the Law" is problematic, especially since there are numerous verses whereas he negates the letter of the Law..

Go ahead and answer this when you come back from your busy week. There is no rush.

Give me your one very BEST example of Jesus negating the letter of the Law and we'll discuss it.

IMHO, he never violated the Torah. Most of Oral Torah was set by that time, and he observed it and encouraged its observance. There was a small remainder of Oral Torah that was still in formation, and Jesus participated in the arguments about the interpretations (siding 99% with the school of Hillel). This is when you see him allowing healing on the Shabbat, allowing his disciples to pick grain on the Shabbat when they were hungry, etc.

You should be aware that the Rabbis teach that the essense of the Law is to love God and your neighbor as yourself -- Jesus was not original.