Mosaic law still present?

[IndigoChild5559]

You appear to be making up Scripture as you go along. And as for Jews, the house of Judah, they do not represent the "house of Israel", which remains "scattered among the nations/Gentiles" (Ezekiel 36:17 & 19), who have yet to be "gathered out" (Ezekiel 36:24).

Isaiah 56:6 And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD to minister to Him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be His servants— all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it and who hold fast to My covenant— 7 I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”…

Good questions! Happy to reply.

You appear to be appealing to a very small section of time when the People of Israel were divided into two kingdoms, the north and the south (the north called Israel and the south called Judah).

Let's look at what happened when the northern kingdom broke up.

1. Some of them fled south and became citizens of Judah. When Judah went into captivity, these refugees went into captivity with them. Thus when the Babylonians called ALL the captives from Judah "Jews," this included those refugees of the 10 northern tribes as well.

2. Some of them stayed and intermarried with pagans and became the Samaritans.

3. Some went into captivity in Assyria. Their descendants are dispersed around the world, BUT by no means are all Gentiles these descendants, nor is there any way to discern who all these descendants are. It is far, far, more likely that any given Gentile is NOT a descendant than that they are. Thus a Gentile should assume they are not. If a Gentile wishes to become part of the Children of Israel, they should go through formal conversion.


You quoted:
Isaiah 56:6 And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD to minister to Him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be His servants— all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it and who hold fast to My covenant— 7 I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.”

When it says, "WHO JOIN THEMSELVES TO THE LORD" it is talking about Gerrim Toshavim -- permanent residents in Israel who convert. They BECOME JEWS. As new Jews, they of course keep the Shabbat, as well as all the 613 laws.

Remember that keeping the Sabbath has to do with remembering the Exodus (Deuteronomy 5:15). Your ancestors were never slaves in Egypt.

If you are a Gentile, you are under no obligation to keep the Shabbat. However, if you choose to do so voluntarily, wonderful. I think you will be blessed by it, as there are many things about it that are naturally healthy, and it is also good for a person's spiritual life to set aside time for God. Besides, I seriously doubt you are keeping the Sabbath in the same manner as Jews do. If it brings you closer to Hashem, go for it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Most of us just are probably barely able "to keep well" with one.

Quite true. Most men today can't even support one wife -- they need her to work as well.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How did that work out for Solomon? Who determines how many "he could afford to keep well", and what about women taking care of themselves (Isaiah 4:1)?

Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"

I don't presume to understand the Isaiah verse. I suggest you ask a Rabbi. May Rabbi O can help you.

I'm sure that Solomon's wives had no want of material things. My concern would be their want of attention.

 

[2ndpillar]

I don't presume to understand the Isaiah verse. I suggest you ask a Rabbi. May Rabbi O can help you.

I'm sure that Solomon's wives had no want of material things. My concern would be their want of attention.

My concern was that Solomon followed the gods of his wives in old age". Plus Deuteronomy 17:17 kind of limits the number of wives to less than "many". How many is "many"? Apparently 7 sounds good, as it is the number given in Isaiah 4:1. Plus in Isaiah 4:1, they take care of themselves. But that is "in that day", the day of the "Branch of the LORD", the branch/shoot of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1), who is the angel of the LORD, who is "My Servant" (Isaiah 42:1), "the "despised one" (Isaiah 49:7), the "arm of the LORD", by the right hand of Moses.

https://biblehub.com/1_kings/11-4.htm
For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father

Deuteronomy 17:14-20 14When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," 15be sure to appoint over you a king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite. 16The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again." 17He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold. 18When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests. 19It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the LORD his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees 20and not consider himself better than his fellow Israelites and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/63-12.htm
. Darby Bible Translation. his glorious arm leading them by the right hand of Moses, dividing the waters before them, to make himself an everlasting name,

 

[2ndpillar]

However, we cannot possibly say that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their liberal attitudes. Therefore there can be no comparison between this and your conclusions about the modern "leaven" of liberalism.

Yeshua specifically called the Pharisees, and Herod (Mark 8:15), along with the Sadducees, hypocrites. Specifically over the giving of tithes of cumin before the weightier matter of caring for their parents (Matthew 23:23). Plus the Jewish leader, of the family of Herod, was from Idumean/Edom, and was not an Israelite, which is against Deuteronomy 17:15, as he is an offspring of Esau. Idumean has simply conquered by the Jews and incorporated into keeping the laws of the Jews. Herod was a fake Jew, but took his brother's wife, which was against the Law. Liberal Jews support killing, and burning of those killed, which is against the Law, and yet support it through the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud. I don't see the righteousness of that. (Isaiah 51:1) & (Isaiah 56:1). One must keep "his hand from doing any evil" (Isiah 56:2). The results of doing evil, are not good, and spelled out in Zechariah 13:9. If one does not learn from history, they are doomed to repeat it.

Mark 8:15
"Watch out!" He cautioned them. "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod."

Matthew 23:…22And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the One who sits on it. 23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.…

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

So, are you in favor of child sacrifices? I use this as only one example because in some cultures this was very much allowed but the Abrahamic religions taught that this was wrong And we could go through law after law and show where Judeo-Christian teachings have been accepted to the point that we don't even much question them.

IOW, laws just don't come out of nowhere, so the question is what's going to be the basis of our laws?

And those religions are just as wrong as the Abrahamic faiths.

Good Moral values not ancient out dated religious beliefs.

 

[pearl]

What exactly is work, that it is forbidden on the Shabbat? What exactly is the kosher way to slaughter a clean animal?

I was thinking of the differences in the acceptance of resurrection, after life and divorce.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yoheshua did away with the laws. Say la vie.

 

[sooda]

Yeshua specifically called the Pharisees, and Herod (Mark 8:15), along with the Sadducees, hypocrites. Specifically over the giving of tithes of cumin before the weightier matter of caring for their parents (Matthew 23:23). Plus the Jewish leader, of the family of Herod, was from Idumean/Edom, and was not an Israelite, which is against Deuteronomy 17:15, as he is an offspring of Esau. Idumean has simply conquered by the Jews and incorporated into keeping the laws of the Jews. Herod was a fake Jew, but took his brother's wife, which was against the Law. Liberal Jews support killing, and burning of those killed, which is against the Law, and yet support it through the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), the Talmud. I don't see the righteousness of that. (Isaiah 51:1) & (Isaiah 56:1). One must keep "his hand from doing any evil" (Isiah 56:2). The results of doing evil, are not good, and spelled out in Zechariah 13:9. If one does not learn from history, they are doomed to repeat it.

Mark 8:15
"Watch out!" He cautioned them. "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and of Herod."

Matthew 23:…22And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the One who sits on it. 23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.…

The Edomites were forcibly converted by the Hebrews.

The Family of Abraham: The Edomites – Descendants of Esau

The Edomites are a Hebrew people descended from Abraham and his first wife, Sarah through their son Isaac and grandson Esau. Esau married four wives, three were Canaanites and one Ishmaelite as follows:

continued

Origins: The Family of Abraham: The Edomites – Descendants of Esau


In 125 BCE, Idumea was conquered by the Hasmoneans lead by John Hyrcanus, and the Edomites were forcibly converted to Judaism, the religion of the Second Temple era. This forced conversion allowed the Edomites to integrate and intermarry with the Judeans.

 

[metis]

Good Moral values not ancient out dated religious beliefs.

But the important question is where does those "Good Moral values" come from as logically they don't generate themselves out of nothing.

Personally, I think some of these values are basically genetic as we are social animals, and all social animals have some sort of "pecking order", otherwise the societies would fall apart from the inside. But religion has a role to play as well since every single society in the world as far back as we can trace it has much of it's mores and folkways largely established or highly influenced by religion. Matter of fact, attempts by governments that tried to eliminate religion failed miserably at that. In anthropology, we refer to religion as one of the "five basic institutions" all societies have, even including those societies that tried to eliminate religion.

One thing my wife and I have long agreed upon, even though during a great deal of my life I was an agnostic, is that religious upbringing has its value because it helps to reinforce the morals that good parents try to teach their children. Both of us agree that even if we knew there were no deities, religious influence still has an important role for both societies and for us as individuals.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus 'tells us' how to follow the spiritual laws, or rules, even strictly, if you want to.

It's multifaceted, not as difficult as made out to be. Just like there are Jews who don't keep kosher, it's going to vary.

 

[2ndpillar]

Yoheshua did away with the laws. Say la vie.

The false prophet Paul nailed the law to the cross. As far as Yeshua's teachings, until the earth and the heavens pass away, not one letter of the law "shall pass away" (Matthew 5:18). Has the world gone through Har-Magedon, for all the nations/kingdoms (Daniel 2:44-45), or is that still yet in the future?

 

[Desert Snake]

The false prophet Paul nailed the law to the cross. As far as Yeshua's teachings, until the earth and the heavens pass away, not one letter of the law "shall pass away" (Matthew 5:18). Has the world gone through Har-Magedon, for all the nations/kingdoms (Daniel 2:44-45), or is that still yet in the future?

Nope, Jesus tells us the rules for Jesus followers, which are different from Judaism. Everything can be figured out from Scripture.

 

[Desert Snake]

You're going to derive the 'wrong rules', without the basis by Jesus.

 

[Desert Snake]

By the way, Moses isn't Jesus.

 

[2ndpillar]

Nope, Jesus tells us the rules for Jesus followers, which are different from Judaism. Everything can be figured out from Scripture.

Paul nailed the law to the cross. Your "scriptures" are the word of Paul, and his associates. The difference between Yeshua and the Jews was that the Jews followed the pen of the scribes, which made a lie of the law (Jeremiah 8:8). Yeshua's message was to do as the Pharisees say, not as they do. Yeshua's message was "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". To enter into the "kingdom of heaven" at hand, one must be more righteous than the Pharisees.(Matthew 5:20). If your eye makes you stumble, "tear it out" (Matthew 5:29). I think you have missed the gravity of Yeshua's message, and have run through "wide" gate Paul has given you, and can't see the cliff at the end of that crooked, but broad path (Matthew 7:13). Don't worry, the time is coming to and end. "Judah" and "Jerusalem have been "revived" (Joel 3:1), as of 1967, and the valley of judgment for the nations comes right after (Joel 3:2). That would be Har-Magedon (Revelation 16:13:16).

 

[Desert Snake]

The scribes were lying, yet you present the idea that Jesus said 'obey the scribes/priests?' What?

The Mosaic law = scribes and priests. Should have figured that out from Acts of the Apostles.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Apostles basically believed that priests added false things to the laws given to Moses

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

But the important question is where does those "Good Moral values" come from as logically they don't generate themselves out of nothing.

Personally, I think some of these values are basically genetic as we are social animals, and all social animals have some sort of "pecking order", otherwise the societies would fall apart from the inside. But religion has a role to play as well since every single society in the world as far back as we can trace it has much of it's mores and folkways largely established or highly influenced by religion. Matter of fact, attempts by governments that tried to eliminate religion failed miserably at that. In anthropology, we refer to religion as one of the "five basic institutions" all societies have, even including those societies that tried to eliminate religion.

One thing my wife and I have long agreed upon, even though during a great deal of my life I was an agnostic, is that religious upbringing has its value because it helps to reinforce the morals that good parents try to teach their children. Both of us agree that even if we knew there were no deities, religious influence still has an important role for both societies and for us as individuals.

There may have been a time where our society would have benefited from religions, but as we continue to grow as a species we show an improvement for rational thought. We are at a point in history in which our religious beliefs are hindering us for creating a better society. Case in point in the christian right wing politically is in a never ending battle to hinder the rights of homosexuals in our country. Unless religion drops the barbaric traditions of its past it will not survive the next century.

 

[sooda]

The false prophet Paul nailed the law to the cross. As far as Yeshua's teachings, until the earth and the heavens pass away, not one letter of the law "shall pass away" (Matthew 5:18). Has the world gone through Har-Magedon, for all the nations/kingdoms (Daniel 2:44-45), or is that still yet in the future?

The first and second chapters of Daniel are about Nebuchadnezzar's court. Daniel wasn't born yet so he's writing about the past.