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Moses did not write the Torah: The Ultimate Evidence

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
then what is this statement here?? he makes it pretty clear

He was just responding to what you said. You were the first person to suggest anything about deities putting pen to paper.

There's a difference between having a discussion, and having a discussion about the discussion. For a moment, you were going back and forth on form, rather than substance. Yanni highlighted the fact that you're just as likely to back up your claim when you make claims as he is. Which is to say, not at all.

But when you bring it back to how this exchange started, Yanni was talking about God authoring the Torah via dictation, with Moses holding the pen, and YOU came up with:

:facepalm:

god never penned a word
 

outhouse

Atheistically
He was just responding to what you said. You were the first person to suggest anything about deities putting pen to paper.

There's a difference between having a discussion, and having a discussion about the discussion. For a moment, you were going back and forth on form, rather than substance. Yanni highlighted the fact that you're just as likely to back up your claim when you make claims as he is. Which is to say, not at all.

But when you bring it back to how this exchange started, Yanni was talking about God authoring the Torah via dictation, with Moses holding the pen, and YOU came up with:


since moses is said to have never penned a word, I dont think your going anywhere.

second he wanted to know about gods penning words. My solid proof is that no books have ever been attributed to the abrahamic god.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
since moses is said to have never penned a word,
Who said? How would they know?

second he wanted to know about gods penning words.
No. He saw you make a statement and challenged you to back it up. Nothing suggests he has a vested interest in the position that God did pen words. His position from the beginning was that Moses penned the Torah. [/QUOTE] My solid proof is that no books have ever been attributed to the abrahamic god.[/quote]

This is a strawman. Nobody is making the claim that God physically wrote any book.
 
J

johnpeter1970

Guest
Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.


Here is a good example:

And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, (Jeremiah 36:1)

Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day. (Jeremiah 36:2)

It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin. (Jeremiah 36:3)

Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book. (Jeremiah 36:4)
 

Jethro

Member
Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.

You need to understand that ultimately God was the author of the Old and New Testament Scriptures. Therefore, whether there was one or two inspired authors in a certain book matters nothing. Furthermore, you need to understand that although the OT books are attributed to certain prophets, which is true, most if not all such books were written down by Jewish scribes and not the prophets themselves. Rather the prophets dictated to the scribes and they in turn wrote down the prophets inspired words. Moreover, you need to understand that although the first 5 books of the OT were attributed to Moses, which even Jesus attested to (Mk. 12:26), as well as other OT books (2 Chron. 25:4; 35:12; Ezra 6:18; Neh. 13:1), the Jewish scribe/s who penned them were obviously at liberty under the inspiration of God (2 Tim. 3:16) to add miniscule parts as you have quoted.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You need to understand that ultimately God was the author of the Old and New Testament Scriptures.

only in imagination.


ancient hebrews wrote the bible, no need to get all deep in it. Theres nothing to support your view, in fact your god/deity would have to be ignorant if he was the author.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
I believe Moses existed and seized power over a nation of wanderers by fooling them into believing he was a prophet of God. The trick is laid out in surprisingly self-damaging detail in Exodus 19 where Moses, in the days leading up to God's visit to Israel on Mount Sinai, has boundaries set around the mountain that were not to be crossed on pain of immediate execution while they set up a massive bonfire atop the mountain producing a dense cloud they falsely said to be God.

He consequently was in a position to write a large portion, but not nearly all of the Pentateuch.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
I believe Moses existed and seized power over a nation of wanderers by fooling them into believing he was a prophet of God. The trick is laid out in surprisingly self-damaging detail in Exodus 19 where Moses, in the days leading up to God's visit to Israel on Mount Sinai, has boundaries set around the mountain that were not to be crossed on pain of immediate execution while they set up a massive bonfire atop the mountain producing a dense cloud they falsely said to be God.

He consequently was in a position to write a large portion, but not nearly all of the Pentateuch.

Moses has ZERO historicty.

the whole exodus has ZERO historicity

Egypt never had a enslaved race of hebrews


Hebrews did not exist at all dirung the time from indicated



we know these legends were created around the 5th and 6th century
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.
This is the ultimate evidence? Good grief! :face palm:

Your "ultimate evidence' can be summarily dismissed by noting:
  • The traditional claim is not simply that Moses wrote the Torah, but that the Torah was revealed to Moses.
  • If one accepts this, then Moses was simply transmitting what he was instructed to communicate.
  • Inferring exceeding arrogance from the result is baseless.
Your "ultimate evidence" is ultimately vapid and thoughtless.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Moses has ZERO historicty.

the whole exodus has ZERO historicity

Egypt never had a enslaved race of hebrews


Hebrews did not exist at all dirung the time from indicated



we know these legends were created around the 5th and 6th century

Do you feel this is a response to what I wrote before? I am not seeing it.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Anyone who would write that "Egypt never had a enslaved race of hebrews" has - or should have - zero credibility. I cannot think of a single serious archaeologist who would make such a remarkably thoughtless and stupid remark.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Anyone who would write that "Egypt never had a enslaved race of hebrews" has - or should have - zero credibility. I cannot think of a single serious archaeologist who would make such a remarkably thoughtless and stupid remark.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Im sorry you display not only ignorance on the subject at hand, but also violate forum rules with your rude attacks.

I would say anyone who says hebrews were slaves in egypt have ZERO credibility as there is ZERO evidence. I cannot think of a single serious archaeologist who would make such a remark.

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archaeology

The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."[


A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus narrative of an Egyptian captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[18] and it has become increasingly clear that Iron Age Israel - the kingdoms of Judah and Israel - has its origins in Canaan, not Egypt

Chronology

The chronology of the Exodus story likewise underlines its essentially religious rather than historical nature




Egypt says Jewish slaves didn't build pyramids - CSMonitor.com

Egypt’s archaeology chief Zahi Hawass said that discovery and the latest finds last week show that the workers were paid laborers, rather than the slaves of popular imagination


key word imagination




Now we all know you have nothing to back up your ill found views not followed by modern historians or modern scholars, maybe you can post the mythical information instead of making snide unfounded remarks that violate forum rules
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Do you feel this is a response to what I wrote before? I am not seeing it.

you are claiming what historians and scholars all claim is a mythical person, as existing and doing things only found in imagination and no other source
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Anyone who would write that "Egypt never had a enslaved race of hebrews" has - or should have - zero credibility. I cannot think of a single serious archaeologist who would make such a remarkably thoughtless and stupid remark.


the sooner you learn hebrews didnt exist before 1200 BC, the sooner you will stop embarrassing yourself in such a rude manner.

while the Merneptah stele may state a nomadic people called Israel did exist and were wiped out in 1208 BC, these are only the foundation of what would later become Israelites.

And it is in fact the earliest mention of Israelites anywhere
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Anyone who would write that "Egypt never had a enslaved race of hebrews" has - or should have - zero credibility. I cannot think of a single serious archaeologist who would make such a remarkably thoughtless and stupid remark.
I notice that outhouse has made not one but two responses. Please let me know if and when he googles up some archaeologist that echoes the ridiculous nonsense quoted above. :)
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
you are claiming what historians and scholars all claim is a mythical person, as existing and doing things only found in imagination and no other source

I would absolutely love to see support for your claim of universal support among historians and scholars. Also, I am well aware that the miracles surrounding Moses are fabrications, as I demonstrated in my first post.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I would absolutely love to see support for your claim of universal support among historians and scholars. Also, I am well aware that the miracles surrounding Moses are fabrications, as I demonstrated in my first post.


its posted above that moses was a creation of the 5th and 6th century.


if you need more evidence just google moses wiki, or the exodus.



if you have questions feel free to ask
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
You claimed universal support among historians and scholars, a claim I dispute as just as impossible as any supernatural event in the Bible, including Moses alleged miracles. There is no way a google search is going to change my position on this as you've made a claim which fails if I find just one dissenter, at which point this debate devolves into an argument about who counts as a historian or scholar.
 
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