Most here attack or defend. Are there any that just seek God.

[MoonWater]

The two branches of the tree of knowledge have to have a tip. If they grow forever then God also grows forever. At some point in time we have to look at what is at the tip.
On the tip of my branch of evil I see a black genocide. Anything further down is gray but it is in no way good except for the fact that it is not black.

huh?

What do you see as your maximum evil?

Regards
DL

I already told you I don't believe in good and evil, I don't use those labels because they imply absolutes and nothing is absolute. it's just a matter of, like river said, weighing the positive and negative. And the positive and negative will always vary, even for the same thing, depending on the time, the people involved, etc. So I don't have a "maximum evil". I can't even say that such and such has the most negative consequences compared to positive as it will be different every time. I prefer to take things as they come, judging them on their current causes, effects, consequences, etc. I don't deal in absolutes.

 

[Greatest I am]

huh?


I already told you I don't believe in good and evil, I don't use those labels because they imply absolutes and nothing is absolute. it's just a matter of, like river said, weighing the positive and negative. And the positive and negative will always vary, even for the same thing, depending on the time, the people involved, etc. So I don't have a "maximum evil". I can't even say that such and such has the most negative consequences compared to positive as it will be different every time. I prefer to take things as they come, judging them on their current causes, effects, consequences, etc. I don't deal in absolutes.

Fence sitter.

Regards
DL

 

[Riverwolf]

Fence sitter.

Regards
DL

Precisely our point.

It's not a single line. It's a polygon with infinite sides.

In truth, there is no fence to sit on... unless you build one yourself.

 

[ChristineES]

Not believing that good and evil are absolutes is not being a fence sitter.

Is anger a "evil" emotion? No, not necessarily. Anger can cause good things to happen. For example, someone is angry about spousal abuse- that anger can cause them to open or support a safe house for abused spouses.

Is acceptance always a good thing? No, not always. What if your neighbor is very accepting of a child molester who ends up abusing your child.

So anger can be bad and acceptance can be good but also the opposite may be true.

That is all they have been trying to say to you.

 

[Riverwolf]

Not believing that good and evil are absolutes is not being a fence sitter.

Is anger a "evil" emotion? No, not necessarily. Anger can cause good things to happen. For example, someone is angry about spousal abuse- that anger can cause them to open or support a safe house for abused spouses.

Is acceptance always a good thing? No, not always. What if your neighbor is very accepting of a child molester who ends up abusing your child.

So anger can be bad and acceptance can be good but also the opposite may be true.

That is all they have been trying to say to you.

Very well put.

 

[MoonWater]

Fence sitter.

Regards
DL

:biglaugh:

 

[MoonWater]

Not believing that good and evil are absolutes is not being a fence sitter.

Is anger a "evil" emotion? No, not necessarily. Anger can cause good things to happen. For example, someone is angry about spousal abuse- that anger can cause them to open or support a safe house for abused spouses.

Is acceptance always a good thing? No, not always. What if your neighbor is very accepting of a child molester who ends up abusing your child.

So anger can be bad and acceptance can be good but also the opposite may be true.

That is all they have been trying to say to you.

Exactly, Christine. Well said, frubals.

 

[MoonWater]

Fence sitter.

Regards
DL

Again I ask you, why do you feel the need to paint those who disagree with you in a poor light? We're not saying your wrong DL, only that we have a different opinion from yours. So why are you getting so defensive?

 

[gnostic]

And if you find a god, what do you do with it?

Worship

I would then know that god is real and believe that he exist.

Worship?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

If he is evil god, who demands worship and slave, then I would think not.

Just because he exists, it doesn't mean that I would worship him.

It's really depend on God's character and motive.

He would need to stop all violence and bloodshed done by fanatics in his name, or in the name of his religion, or in the name of his prophet. And that would be only the 1st and tiny step in the right direction.

A bigger step would be not to judge and punish people on the basis of simple belief. If a person still refuses to worship him that person would not go to hell for that belief. Only a tyrant would try to force people to worship him.

 

[challupa]

I would then know that god is real and believe that he exist.

Worship?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

If he is evil god, who demands worship and slave, then I would think not.

Just because he exists, it doesn't mean that I would worship him.

It's really depend on God's character and motive.

He would need to stop all violence and bloodshed done by fanatics in his name, or in the name of his religion, or in the name of his prophet. And that would be only the 1st and tiny step in the right direction.

A bigger step would be not to judge and punish people on the basis of simple belief. If a person still refuses to worship him that person would not go to hell for that belief. Only a tyrant would try to force people to worship him.

Now that's thinking for yourself, making up your own mind and that's exactly what we need more of imo. Solve many of our problems that for sure.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Greatest I am.

That is good in short me times.

Have your seen the old version of the time machine by H.H. Wells. His Eloy were like that except for your good moral sense.Sorry, have no sense be they moral/immoral

That Is Wells version of us if Eve had not eaten of the fruit. Thank her much for all of mankind. We are just starting to understand what the prophets were trying to tell us but in the case of my God, He started out rather stupid by today's standards.

His Eloy did not know good and evil. We have moral sense thanks to Eve.

I have to be careful with my Franglais. Did I just insult you or just damn near.
When am never at home, who receives any gifts/insults or whatever, anyone brings?
Regards
DL

 

[gnostic]

Now that's thinking for yourself, making up your own mind and that's exactly what we need more of imo. Solve many of our problems that for sure.

Well, I like to hear from the horse's mouth and see what he do, instead of these supposed scriptures of his, before I can decide one way or another, if he is worthy of worship.

The god portrayed in the books of Genesis, Samuel and Job, don't seem worthy at all.

And the idea of being eternally stuck in hell for not converting from the New Testament, seemed like autocratic despot than a loving and merciful father.

 

[Greatest I am]

Not believing that good and evil are absolutes is not being a fence sitter.

Is anger a "evil" emotion? No, not necessarily. Anger can cause good things to happen. For example, someone is angry about spousal abuse- that anger can cause them to open or support a safe house for abused spouses.

Is acceptance always a good thing? No, not always. What if your neighbor is very accepting of a child molester who ends up abusing your child.

So anger can be bad and acceptance can be good but also the opposite may be true.

That is all they have been trying to say to you.

I grant your point with the examples given but------my example was genocide

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Buchenwald concentration camp


While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

What good is involved here?

If some good can be found then there is something more evil than this. What could be more evil than this?

As I said, genocide is the black tip of my graft of good and evil. The white tip of the other would be to not do genocide. Yin across from yang so to speak.

Who can suggest a greater sin than genocide?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Again I ask you, why do you feel the need to paint those who disagree with you in a poor light? We're not saying your wrong DL, only that we have a different opinion from yours. So why are you getting so defensive?

1st When I was a non believer, it was my determination in winning logical debate that lead me to God. To me then this becomes a quality.
2nd To some degree I like to fight the idea of a balanced approach on some topics. Let me try to explain this. An outside example may be best. You may know David Suzuki. A renowned geneticist and environmental expert. He complains that people fight his efforts for reform vis-à-vis global warming out of a lack of perspective on the issue, primarily because of media balancing. When interviews are planned, the various narrators like to show his side of the issue and someone else from the other side of the issue. The audience sees a one on one debate and believe that this representation is fair and balanced and base their opinions on this-fact-. They forget that in the larger world, Mr. Suzuki is backed up by perhaps 90% of the intelligentsia while his adversary represents 10%.
In other words he gets screwed.
In this particular issue of genocide, I see myself in the same position. Somewhat.
Having said this, right or wrong, I let my writing and word scream out with the volume of the majority as I see it.
When I am in the right position on an issue then I shine. When I have to eat crow, I eat a huge bird.
I take more of a chance than most and either reap the rewards or pay the price.
My main weapon is truth and I do not mind putting some volume to it. One side benefit that I do not mind is that Fundamentals of the issue drop away quickly and am not bothered by this while the better debaters like those here working on this issue with me show there worth by criticizing me which I do not mind either but stay with it to the sometimes bitter end.
I can learn and change my mind but if any here want to do this, they get to hone there skills on the likes of me.
In all things I am an unrepentant sinner.+
Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I would then know that god is real and believe that he exist.

Worship?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

If he is evil god, who demands worship and slave, then I would think not.

Just because he exists, it doesn't mean that I would worship him.

It's really depend on God's character and motive.

He would need to stop all violence and bloodshed done by fanatics in his name, or in the name of his religion, or in the name of his prophet. And that would be only the 1st and tiny step in the right direction.

A bigger step would be not to judge and punish people on the basis of simple belief. If a person still refuses to worship him that person would not go to hell for that belief. Only a tyrant would try to force people to worship him.

God does not seek worship, He seeks respect.

It is like humans. Love you cannot help, respect has to be earned.

Judge the Gods and find the one you can respect. Love, so to speak, is cheep. Respect is priceless.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I would then know that god is real and believe that he exist.

Worship?

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

If he is evil god, who demands worship and slave, then I would think not.

Just because he exists, it doesn't mean that I would worship him.

It's really depend on God's character and motive.

He would need to stop all violence and bloodshed done by fanatics in his name, or in the name of his religion, or in the name of his prophet. And that would be only the 1st and tiny step in the right direction.

A bigger step would be not to judge and punish people on the basis of simple belief. If a person still refuses to worship him that person would not go to hell for that belief. Only a tyrant would try to force people to worship him.

The idea of a miracle working God should have died 3000yrs ago.
if God had miracles and did not use them to help His people then it could be said that He is not a moral being.
Sinse no miracles are forth coming and God is moral to me, then I have to conclude that thereis no miracle working God. The one I found is such. The epitome of intelligence and wisdom. Unfortunately though, He works with nature, not against it. No miracles.

If you seek one that must do miracles, then I would suggest that you waste your efforts.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Now that's thinking for yourself, making up your own mind and that's exactly what we need more of imo. Solve many of our problems that for sure.

I agree and would tell Gnostic that the old Gnostics were more naturalists as opposed to those who looked for miracles. You might say that they were evolutionists who used Genesis as an archetypal legend and not a real story.
This is the proper way to see it.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Well, I like to hear from the horse's mouth and see what he do, instead of these supposed scriptures of his, before I can decide one way or another, if he is worthy of worship.

The god portrayed in the books of Genesis, Samuel and Job, don't seem worthy at all.

And the idea of being eternally stuck in hell for not converting from the New Testament, seemed like autocratic despot than a loving and merciful father.

The Bible helped me find God but in no way should you try to read it literally. If you do, as you say, God looks like a genocidal maniac and loser. He is not.

If I may suggest that you use it but stay in Genesis until you can leave it thinking that the -fall- was not a fall at all but a joyous leap towards a history that we would not enjoy if Eve had not done the right thing in eating of the tree of knowledge.

It took this bit of wisdom for me before I could start to glean the real God of scripture. The winner, not the loser.

Regards
DL

 

[MoonWater]

1st When I was a non believer, it was my determination in winning logical debate that lead me to God. To me then this becomes a quality.
2nd To some degree I like to fight the idea of a balanced approach on some topics. Let me try to explain this. An outside example may be best. You may know David Suzuki. A renowned geneticist and environmental expert. He complains that people fight his efforts for reform vis-à-vis global warming out of a lack of perspective on the issue, primarily because of media balancing. When interviews are planned, the various narrators like to show his side of the issue and someone else from the other side of the issue. The audience sees a one on one debate and believe that this representation is fair and balanced and base their opinions on this-fact-. They forget that in the larger world, Mr. Suzuki is backed up by perhaps 90% of the intelligentsia while his adversary represents 10%.
In other words he gets screwed.
In this particular issue of genocide, I see myself in the same position. Somewhat.
Having said this, right or wrong, I let my writing and word scream out with the volume of the majority as I see it.
When I am in the right position on an issue then I shine. When I have to eat crow, I eat a huge bird.
I take more of a chance than most and either reap the rewards or pay the price.
My main weapon is truth and I do not mind putting some volume to it. One side benefit that I do not mind is that Fundamentals of the issue drop away quickly and am not bothered by this while the better debaters like those here working on this issue with me show there worth by criticizing me which I do not mind either but stay with it to the sometimes bitter end.
I can learn and change my mind but if any here want to do this, they get to hone there skills on the likes of me.
In all things I am an unrepentant sinner.+
Regards
DL

So if I'm understanding you correctly you think this is an "I'm right, your wrong" issue, where you think you're right and that I am mistaken in my views? Personally I don't care if you think that way, though I don't understand why it has to be an "I'm right, your wrong" deal. when you get down to the nitty gritty, my disagreement with you is mainly semantics. I don't like the use of labels, particularly the labels good and evil because they imply absolutes. When you see things as absolute you really are only to see one side of the issue and when you only see one side of the issue you can't have a complete understanding of what's going on. Many wars could have been prevented and lives saved if people avoided labeling and demonizing. I look down on genocide just as much as you do. I view it as something that causes a great deal of harm and should be stopped. But I don't label it or those who commit it evil because by doing so it forces me to look at both sides of the issue, and I have found that often you can't truly stop a bully unless you understand why he's a bully in the first place. I just feel that if we spent less time labeling and more time trying to understand we could prevent a lot of heart ache in this world.

 

[MoonWater]

God does not seek worship, He seeks respect.

It is like humans. Love you cannot help, respect has to be earned.

Judge the Gods and find the one you can respect. Love, so to speak, is cheep. Respect is priceless.

Regards
DL

For once I agree with you, except for the comment about love being "cheap", but then I'm not really sure why you would call it such, is it simply because its easier to obtain than respect? In which case I can see your point, but you also have to work just as hard if not harder to keep it, IMO. Maybe you could clarify why think of love as "cheap".