Mother Teresa wars

[Poisonshady313]

Regarding Keating, there may have been other qualities she admired in him , and we don't know the whole story.

Mother Teresa is not a thief if she did not know at the time that she was receiving money that was stolen.

I do not believe that she knew he was a crook when he was donating the money.

If all of what you say is true, do I believe Mother Teresa should have paid people who were victimized by this man if she had the resources to do so? Yes , I do believe so.

However, she was a very old busy lady at this time, and she died a few years after they found out about this guy.

Also, she wrote letters requesting leniency, but she also believes what our lord said about forgiving people Seventy Times seven times and loving your enemies too.

so this is a woman who radically follows the Gospels and radically follows a man who told people to love their enemies and preached radical forgiveness. A man who was being tortured and executed by people while asking the father to forgive them, so it shouldn't surprise us at all that she is requesting leniency for somebody she wants counted a close friend who had a fall from a state of grace.

Her request for leniency for this man does not mean she was not disgusted by what he did.

Once again, I don't know the whole story, but Mother Teresa certainly made mistakes. Let's not forget that Peter denied Christ three times.

She was made aware what Keating did 5 years before she died. And no effort was made to return the money to the people from whom it was stolen.

And because she knowingly kept stolen money, it is as if she herself had stolen it. This is hardly the behavior of a decent person, much less someone regarded by some as a saint.

 

[Poisonshady313]

She's a saint in my book, but not perfect. A former priest and friend of mine who worked with her for three months during one summer has nothing but praise for her, especially considering the overwhelming conditions she and her charge had to work under.

The illusion of her goodness is unraveled by knowledge of her acts of sadism, thievery, and hypocrisy. It's getting harder and harder to find anything good about her at all.

Your friend was either unaware of what she was really up to, or was a part of it. I'll assume the best case scenario, and suggest he was unaware.

 

[Spiderman]

She's a saint in my book, but not perfect. A former priest and friend of mine who worked with her for three months during one summer has nothing but praise for her, especially considering the overwhelming conditions she and her charge had to work under.

Oddly enough an old friend of mine from Montana who's known Mother Theresa personally and works at her missions called today and said many of the charges against her are bogus.

He said there were doctors there prescribing medications that the people needed including painkillers and he said they administered them to the sick and to the dying, giving them all the Doctors said they needed, yet people claim Mother Teresa refused to give people medical care cuz she wanted them to suffer.

It's hard to know fact from fiction anymore. There is so much that credible scientists, doctors, historians, and whoever else have claimed and so many studies that have been done that have later turned out to be bogus.

 

[Spiderman]

She was made aware what Keating did 5 years before she died. And no effort was made to return the money to the people from whom it was stolen.

And because she knowingly kept stolen money, it is as if she herself had stolen it. This is hardly the behavior of a decent person, much less someone regarded by some as a saint.

Who knows if she kept it or used any of it on herself. She did not ever live in luxury.

She was building a lot of missions and there were many bills to pay and a lot of people that managed the finances that the money may have been spent quickly.

I guess if people wanted the money back so badly they could have easily filed a lawsuit or sued her, especially if she had done something illegal.

We don't know the whole story.

 

[metis]

Oddly enough an old friend of mine from Montana who's known Mother Theresa personally and works at her missions called today and said many of the charges against her are bogus.

He said there were doctors there prescribing medications that the people needed including painkillers and he said they administered them to the sick and to the dying, giving them all the Doctors said they needed, yet people claim Mother Teresa refused to give people medical care cuz she wanted them to suffer.

It's hard to know fact from fiction anymore. There is so much that credible scientists, doctors, historians, and whoever else have claimed and so many studies that have been done that have later turned out to be bogus.

It's really hard to say much of anything because what we tend to read is what people may filter through their minds. I'll be frank in that I don't like to nit-pick the deceased, much preferring to try and take the "glass half-full" approach. To me, let them and their families RIP.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Who knows if she kept it or used any of it on herself. She did not ever live in luxury.

She was building a lot of missions and there were many bills to pay and a lot of people that managed the finances that the money may have been spent quickly.

I guess if people wanted the money back so badly they could have easily filed a lawsuit or sued her, especially if she had done something illegal.

We don't know the whole story.

The deputy district attorney sent her a letter:


Dear Mother Teresa:
I am a Deputy District Attorney in Los Angeles County and one of the persons who worked on the prosecution of your benefactor, Charles H. Keating, Jr. I read your letter to Judge Ito, written on behalf of Mr. Keating, which includes your admission that you know nothing about Mr. Keating’s business or the criminal charges presented to Judge Ito. I am writing to you to provide a brief explanation of the crimes of which Mr. Keating has been convicted, to give you an understanding of the source of the money that Mr. Keating gave to you, and to suggest that you perform the moral and ethical act of returning the money to its rightful owners.

The biblical slogan of your organization is ‘As long as you did it to one of these My least brethren. You did it to Me’. The ‘least’ of the brethren are among those whom Mr. Keating fleeced without flinching. As you well know, divine forgiveness is available to all, but forgiveness must be preceded by admission of sin. Not only has Mr. Keating failed to admit his sins and his crimes, he persists in selfrighteously blaming others for his own misdeeds. Your experience is, admirably, with the poor. My experience has been with the ‘con’ man and the perpetrator of the fraud. It is not uncommon for ‘con’ men to be generous with family, friends and charities. Perhaps they believe that their generosity will purchase love, respect or forgiveness. However, the time when the purchase of ‘indulgences’ was an acceptable method of seeking forgiveness died with the Reformation. No church, no charity, no organisation should allow itself to be used as salve for the conscience of the criminal.

I remind myself of the biblical admonition of the Prophet Micah: ‘0 man, what is good and what does the Lord require of you. To do justice, love mercy and walk humbly.’ We are urged to love mercy but we must do justice. You urge Judge Ito to look into his heart – as he sentences Charles Keating – and do what Jesus would do. I submit the same challenge to you.

Ask yourself what Jesus would do if he were given the fruits of a crime; what Jesus would do if he were in possession of money that had been stolen; what Jesus would do if he were being exploited by a thief to ease his conscience? I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners. You should do the same. You have been given money by Mr. Keating that he has been convicted of stealing by fraud. Do not permit him the ‘indulgence’ he desires. Do not keep the money. Return it to those who worked for it and earned it!

If you contact me I will put you in direct contact with the rightful owners of the property now in your possession.

She didn't return one dime. And rather than heal sick people, she just sort of gathered them together to suffer together. With the money she received she built convents. Hundreds of them. Not one hospital. And when she herself became ill, she was taken care of with advanced medicine.

As I said: A sadist, a thief, and a hypocrite.

 

[Deathbydefault]

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

She was an evil person and embodies much of what is wrong with Catholicism, theologically and as an institution. She's just an example of what "business as usual" looks like in the Catholic church.

It's sad that my mother admired her, albeit the sanitized PR version of her. I didn't want to argue with her about it.

 

[Mister Emu]

her overly dogmatic views regarding, in particular, abortion, contraception, and divorce

Heaven forbid someone actually believe the things they profess.

Especially since he challenges the notion that she helped to ease anyone's suffering.

Better to die alone in a gutter, eh?

Who cares how hateful Hitchens is,

Anybody who is interested in a true accounting. Interested parties don't tend to be the best at providing accurate and full information.

However, I don't think that I shouldn't be allowed to manage my pain.

Who said you can't?

Criticisms of the Blessed Mother Teresa seem to fall into two categories:
Her finances, which are understandable. She took money from bad people.

She didn't provide the same things I would have provided. Well then, why don't you? Pretty easy for someone to complain that someone else isn't doing enough or doing it right. Fairly harder for them to get off their *** and do it themselves, eh?

How dare you only take the destitute dying population off the street, give them beds and food and minimal health care!? It is an outrage!

 

[Sapiens]

Heaven forbid someone actually believe the things they profess.


Better to die alone in a gutter, eh?


Anybody who is interested in a true accounting. Interested parties don't tend to be the best at providing accurate and full information.


Who said you can't?

Criticisms of the Blessed Mother Teresa seem to fall into two categories:
Her finances, which are understandable. She took money from bad people.

She didn't provide the same things I would have provided. Well then, why don't you? Pretty easy for someone to complain that someone else isn't doing enough or doing it right. Fairly harder for them to get off their *** and do it themselves, eh?

How dare you only take the destitute dying population off the street, give them beds and food and minimal health care!? It is an outrage!

You are entirely missing the point.

Is it better to actually save 50 lives than to provide a place for 500 to die? Especially when you are flying first class and are not resources limited? She was little more than a goul.

You want an example of Catholic grit? John Paul II, he carried on a decades-long, unconsummated, love affair with Anna-Teresa Tymieniecka, now that's a test of faith.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Criticisms of the Blessed Mother Teresa seem to fall into two categories:
Her finances, which are understandable. She took money from bad people.

She didn't provide the same things I would have provided. Well then, why don't you? Pretty easy for someone to complain that someone else isn't doing enough or doing it right. Fairly harder for them to get off their *** and do it themselves, eh?

How dare you only take the destitute dying population off the street, give them beds and food and minimal health care!? It is an outrage!

Agnes had millions and millions of dollars and a fanbase of some of the world's elite. She was buddies with the ultra-rich, dictators, thieves, etc. No one knows exactly how much money she had, because of all the secret accounts. She could've built multiple world class hospitals, but her organization seems to have hoarded it. She flew first class and received the highest standard of healthcare when she was sick, while those placed in her organization's care died painful deaths in squalor (but at least there was a roof over their heads, right?! ). Then she effectively steals millions from swindled people, is made aware of this and doesn't give the money back when she had ample opportunity to do so. Do any of us have that kind of money or influence at our disposal? No, so don't you dare use that ridiculous line of argument. I take offense to the implication that, if I had her level of power in the world, that I would be just as avaricious, cold and sadistic with it as she was.

Her "faith" was of the Dark Ages, cruel and grotesque. Catholicism has a long, sick history of promoting and encouraging sadomasochism, both in mentality and in action. Many of the vaunted ascetics of Christianity were actually delusional lunatics who starved, whipped, beat, sexually repressed and tortured themselves to the point of hysteria, even devising new and rather novel tortures for themselves. (They also didn't mind whipping and beating each other in the convents and such, as well.) Look at the gory iconography of the saints and all the graphic crucifixes that adorn Catholic parishes (especially the older European ones, which more reflect traditional Catholicism; the Church has been trying to tone it down as of late in a PR move). Yes, traditional Catholicism is a very sadomasochistic, violent religion.

So you have that, but Agnes also represents the hypocritical side of Catholicism. She praised the suffering of others, instead of doing she actually could have done, given her power, to relieve it, while she was living in luxury and dining with the kings and queens of the age at the expense of donors. She's just like the Dark Age Pope-kings who conducted themselves as mafiosos while daring to present themselves as holy authorities.

It is just vile.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

It is one thing to believe that suffering brings you closer to jesus and allowing your self to suffer.

It is completely sociopathic to force others to suffer. Especially when you are given MILLIONS to ease their suffering.

I guess that's the big difference between the so called mother theresa, if i had been given millions to help people, i would help them.

And let's not forget that when she was ill she received the best medical treatment known to man.

So a hypocrite and a sociopath.

 

[Mister Emu]

Is it better to actually save 50 lives than to provide a place for 500 to die?

She didn't provide the same things I would have provided. Well then, why don't you? Pretty easy for someone to complain that someone else isn't doing enough or doing it right. Fairly harder for them to get off their *** and do it themselves, eh?

How dare you only take the destitute dying population off the street, give them beds and food and minimal health care!? It is an outrage!

How can you say I missed the point when you follow with exactly what I responded to?

No one knows exactly how much money she had, because of all the secret accounts... her organization seems to have hoarded it.

No ones knows how much money the organization had, but she seems to have hoarded it? How can you on one hand criticize the lack of information you have on the finances and on the other complain how they hoarded money? If you don't know, you don't know.

She could've built multiple world class hospitals

Or she could have built hundreds of homes for the poor, the sick, and the dying.

Then she effectively steals millions from swindled people, is made aware of this and doesn't give the money back when she had ample opportunity to do so.

As I said, this is a valid criticism. I'm personally not sure taking the money donated today to repay people someone else stole from is the right course of action. But it is a fair question that people can have a negative view about.

Do any of us have that kind of money or influence at our disposal? No, so don't you dare use that ridiculous line of argument.

She wasn't magically gifted with influence and money, she saw a need and was moved to act as she did; maybe you could do the same. Go for it, go abandon all your creature comforts and start a movement while you live on the streets with the poor and have to beg for your own food and the supplies necessary to work. Or sit at a computer and complain about someone else not doing it right.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Better to die alone in a gutter, eh?

Better to use sterilized needles, provide adequate care for people with treatable/curable conditions, and perhaps build a hospital or two instead of building hundreds of convents while the sick and starving continue to be sick and starve.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Anybody who is interested in a true accounting. Interested parties don't tend to be the best at providing accurate and full information.

Disagreed.

 

[Sees]

I think the idea of Mother Teresa probably inspired a number of people to do/be better - the reality of Mother Teresa, from what little I know of her, was a mixed bag. It is hard to say between the two choices but I'd lean more towards "Yes." People who are more faultless rarely have a celebrity status and as much influence.

 

[Sapiens]

How can you say I missed the point when you follow with exactly what I responded to?
...

Sure, you responded, but you still missed the point. The best that could be said of Mother Teresa is that she missed the point.

 

[psychoslice]

In some way she may have made things worse ?.

 

[Spiderman]

If she used money to travel first class , that is too bad, but she also had millions of mouths to feed , and hundreds of missions to fund, so aside from traveling first class, she wasn't using the money for her comfort or luxury.

Also, enough people love her that she probably didn't need any money to travel first class. People would have been willing to show her that kindness and honor and respect anyway.

King David was called a man after God's own heart, and God wanted him to be king of Israel, but he committed adultery and murder. she didn't do anything remotely close to as bad as many of the anointed people before her.

It isn't black and white like mistakes make a person evil. Neither do I see receiving donations from bad people as stealing , if you didn't know it was stolen when received.

I recently talked to a man who knew Mother Teresa personally and worked at multiple of her missions. He said they did administer people their medications, and there were doctors there to prescribe the people what they needed. I asked if He administered painkillers to them, and he said they were locked up, but yes we administer those to them as prescribed.

It is hard to demonize a person who, if we followed her example will solve most of the world's problems. That's right, if all followed Mother Teresa's example, the sick would be cared for, the lonely and despized would be loved, the hungry would be fed, and there would be no violence, sexual abuse, or war.

If someone lead such an example that would bear such a good fruit for all to follow that example, I can not by any stretch see such a person as evil , despite them making mistakes.

From my knowledge, if all followed her example, there would also be nobody preaching that people of other faiths are going to hell, because the majority of the people she cared for were non-catholic and even non-Christian. She never preached that they needed to convert before death to be saved.

 

[Mister Emu]

perhaps build a hospital or two instead of building hundreds of convents while the sick and starving continue to be sick and starve.

Why are there synagogues when people are starving? She founded a religious order, and built some religious buildings to support that order.

Why are we to hold people, who go out into the world and help people, give them food and water and shelter and some medical aid that they weren't going to get otherwise, to some impossible standard that we would never hold ourselves to. We don't consider our neighbors and think "it is hard to see anything good at all" because they don't live in a hovel on bare nutritional necessity so as to donate every cent and second possible to the sick and starving. Once someone actually does that and has success, we are supposed to demand they be perfect in every way or into the trash they go. It is absurd.

Disagreed.

Indubitably. As for me, I no more trust the person who hates than the one who loves. Neither is in the best position to rationally consider and report.

The best that could be said of Mother Teresa is that she missed the point.

And that is an incredibly childish view. You suggest it is better to help 10% with first world medical care. I say it is pretty hard to look the starving, dying, discarded 90% left and tell them no. That was her mission, to go to the people society ignored and rejected and tell them, yes. If that is missing the point to you, well, I'd suggest that you are so far out of position that you can't even see the point.