Mueller indicts 13 Russian nationals over 2016 election interference

[idav]

Ya know. I get conservatives that give me a hard time on my views. So does the liberals. I'm not stupid. I know when I'm talking to each. I am a centrist. You are left, as most that I have talked to in this forum. I have another forum I frequent that almost everyone leans right.

I want this country to work, period. I don't want it left. I don't want it right. There's a lot of good minds out their. But we are gearing up for a civil war, IMO. And you know who will win? Russia. China. Saudi Arabia. Iran. etc. We will work to weaken ourselves. It doesn't matter who is president. One side will work to make sure the other doesn't accomplish anything. I am going to assume you are younger than me. I'm 68. I have had a great life. By D Day is here. The world is changing and it's unforgiving. I thought it was bad in Ft Lauderdale growing up in school having to dive under a desk and cover my head during the Cuban Missile Crisis in the early 60s whenever the sirens went off. But kids today have it worse, as they are dodging bullets.

The bottom line is that there is not enough clarity for me to stop backing the President of the United States. I have been that way all my life, even for people who won that I didn't vote for. To punish the country, the American people, who followed all the justified ways to elect the President, does more harm than good. For now, he sits in the oval office. Until he is removed or exonerated, he is still the President. At least to this old timer.

Your world may wind up different.

Good luck.

I like truth as much as the next person. Thing is I don’t think the Russian meddling is partisan issue. I vote for republicans and democrats or independents depending on the candidates. I’ve seen plenty of accusations against Dems but those investigation are over. The most interesting stories about Dems were the Clinton foundation and the Uranium deals but so far those are false but I am all ears, those sound interesting. No president is perfect but if I don’t like their policies I will voice my opinion. Trump is one with pending lawsuits up the wazoo and already has been fined for tax issues with the Trump foundation. Now they are getting closer to the son in law Kushner. All very interesting but the dossier doesn’t interest me because it sounds like criminals trying their best to throw warrants out as per the usual sort of lawyering. If the evidence gets thrown out that doesn’t mean that their was illegal activity by Dems, it would just mean the evidence would be inadmissible. If it got thrown out it wouldn’t surprise me or break my heart I’ve heard of worse travesties of justice. I will continue to eat my popcorn and watch our current presidents soap opera that is the current Administration while the rest of the world laughs at us. Hopefully Trump doesn’t do so much damage that we can’t reverse most of it as we do every four to eight years as Americans per usual get tired of one side and flip flop to the other extreme.

 

[metis]

Thing is I don’t think the Russian meddling is partisan issue.

I agree, but the Trump camp has made it as such by trying to stop it at first and then badmouthing Mueller, the FBI, and all of our intelligence agencies.

If I'm innocent, I want an investigation to go forth to show that I am indeed innocent. But if I'm guilty, I would want to stop it.

 

[Falvlun]

Generally, if something “sickens” someone, they do not respond with “lol.... so what?”

Generally, if someone wants justice issued to all the culprits, they do not provide various defenses, justifications, and excuses for the crimes we know the culprits committed.

It was an answer, I'm sure, to you acting like the Russians meddling in our election process was a big surprise.

It was not. It was in response to this post:
“I fail to see how this changes the fact that the Russian government meddled in our election. Why do their reasons matter? The fact remains: they supported Trump’s Presidency and now he’s president.” Post 289.

You were justifying Russian actions and I asked you why their reasons mattered when considering that they meddled in our election in favor of Trump.

Far from being sickened, you were dismissive and amused.

It's a common issue, has been for many cycles.

Do you have any evidence of this?

I, on the other hand, have evidence that the 2016 election demonstrated a significant ramp-up in Russian aggression:
“Russian efforts to influence the 2016 US presidential election represent the most recent expression of Moscow’s longstanding desire to undermine the US-led liberal democratic order, but these activities demonstrated a significant escalation in directness, level of activity, and scope of effort compared to previous operations.” Source

But they never effected the election results before. Did they in 2016?

Ask the left, they did. Ask the right, they didn't. Huffington Post says yes, Foxnews says no. Ask Clapper and he says " I don''t know, there's no way to prove they did or they didn't as we have no way to gauge such an act"

Surely, a divided country. Right down the fricken middle.

How do you know it never effected results before?

I’ve already stated that I believe it would be relatively impossible to gauge the effect of an influence campaign.

The fact that we cannot quantify it doesn’t mean that we can assume there was no effect. It also does not mean that it should be considered a non-issue. We don’t want any Americans choosing Presidents or policy based on propaganda covertly distributed by hostile foreign governments.

 

[Phantasman]

I like truth as much as the next person. Thing is I don’t think the Russian meddling is partisan issue. I vote for republicans and democrats or independents depending on the candidates. I’ve seen plenty of accusations against Dems but those investigation are over. The most interesting stories about Dems were the Clinton foundation and the Uranium deals but so far those are false but I am all ears, those sound interesting. No president is perfect but if I don’t like their policies I will voice my opinion. Trump is one with pending lawsuits up the wazoo and already has been fined for tax issues with the Trump foundation. Now they are getting closer to the son in law Kushner. All very interesting but the dossier doesn’t interest me because it sounds like criminals trying their best to throw warrants out as per the usual sort of lawyering. If the evidence gets thrown out that doesn’t mean that their was illegal activity by Dems, it would just mean the evidence would be inadmissible. If it got thrown out it wouldn’t surprise me or break my heart I’ve heard of worse travesties of justice. I will continue to eat my popcorn and watch our current presidents soap opera that is the current Administration while the rest of the world laughs at us. Hopefully Trump doesn’t do so much damage that we can’t reverse most of it as we do every four to eight years as Americans per usual get tired of one side and flip flop to the other extreme.

I see it that way also. Obama had 8. Trump should have 8 (or at least 4) as the system allows. Do you know how many politicians or high ranking officials are caught with tax issues on both sides? Read about Charles Rangel.

Attorneys don't make ethical representatives, IMO. They use the law as a guide to how far they can go before they can break it. The Supreme Court denied Obama's actions many times. The same is happening with Trump.

So far I haven't seen too much to reverse. Raise taxes again? Give a Trillion dollars to the Paris accord? Cow tow to Kim Jung Un? Cut the military? Reenact the Obamacare mandate? Allow China to dictate the world monetary?

I see many decisions made that are just common sense. Giving billions to Iran doesn't seem to have stopped them from arming African and ME terrorists.

Spending more on things like US infrastructure and kicking the US economy in the butt appears as a pretty good decision IMO. To others, maybe not.

 

[Phantasman]

Generally, if something “sickens” someone, they do not respond with “lol.... so what?”

Generally, if someone wants justice issued to all the culprits, they do not provide various defenses, justifications, and excuses for the crimes we know the culprits committed.


It was not. It was in response to this post:
“I fail to see how this changes the fact that the Russian government meddled in our election. Why do their reasons matter? The fact remains: they supported Trump’s Presidency and now he’s president.” Post 289.

You were justifying Russian actions and I asked you why their reasons mattered when considering that they meddled in our election in favor of Trump.

Far from being sickened, you were dismissive and amused.


Do you have any evidence of this?

I, on the other hand, have evidence that the 2016 election demonstrated a significant ramp-up in Russian aggression:
“Russian efforts to influence the 2016 US presidential election represent the most recent expression of Moscow’s longstanding desire to undermine the US-led liberal democratic order, but these activities demonstrated a significant escalation in directness, level of activity, and scope of effort compared to previous operations.” Source

How do you know it never effected results before?

I’ve already stated that I believe it would be relatively impossible to gauge the effect of an influence campaign.

The fact that we cannot quantify it doesn’t mean that we can assume there was no effect. It also does not mean that it should be considered a non-issue. We don’t want any Americans choosing Presidents or policy based on propaganda covertly distributed by hostile foreign governments.

No Russian influenced my vote. I watched all the speeches from all sides since they announced candidacy, then watched the debates. If people didn't do that, and listened to (Russian) propaganda instead to get their voting orders, then I can only say:

You get the government you deserve

Both candidates had Conventions and Debates for people to decide. IF you are influenced to do what advertisements say to do, you are a programmable idiot, IMO.

 

[Falvlun]

No Russian influenced my vote. I watched all the speeches from all sides since they announced candidacy, then watched the debates. If people didn't do that, and listened to (Russian) propaganda instead to get their voting orders, then I can only say:

You get the government you deserve

Both candidates had Conventions and Debates for people to decide. IF you are influenced to do what advertisements say to do, you are a programmable idiot, IMO.

A Narcissist's Prayer

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did...
You deserved it.

The Russians would be proud. So many Americans willing to defend them.

 

[Phantasman]

The Russians would be proud. So many Americans willing to defend them.

I think Hillary called that "building bridges instead of building walls"

I have no personal grief against the Russian people. Nor the Mexican people. Hmm...I wonder how many illegal Central Americans voted. Betcha more than Russians did.

 

[Falvlun]

I think Hillary called that "building bridges instead of building walls"

I have no personal grief against the Russian people. Nor the Mexican people. Hmm...I wonder how many illegal Central Americans voted. Betcha more than Russians did.

Keep flushing your credibility down the drain. It ain’t hurting me.

We aren’t talking about “the Russian people” and you and everyone else knows that. We are talking about the Russian government waging a campaign to influence our election in favor of Donald Trump.

It’s also fascinating how you continue to deny, deflect, and excuse the known Russian interference despite mountains of evidence, while continuing to promote debunked or unproven conspiracy theories without a shred of evidence to back them.

 

[Phantasman]

Keep flushing your credibility down the drain. It ain’t hurting me.

We aren’t talking about “the Russian people” and you and everyone else knows that. We are talking about the Russian government waging a campaign to influence our election in favor of Donald Trump.

It’s also fascinating how you continue to deny, deflect, and excuse the known Russian interference despite mountains of evidence, while continuing to promote debunked or unproven conspiracy theories without a shred of evidence to back them.

Dogmatism is unbecoming. Back to another Fallout 4 play on XBox One. This time I'm siding with the Brotherhood of Steel.

 

[Falvlun]

Dogmatism is unbecoming. Back to another Fallout 4 play on XBox One. This time I'm siding with the Brotherhood of Steel.

Have fun! As ever, I hope this causes you to consider your position a little more closely.

 

[Underhill]

I hear ya. I hope it all comes out and justice issued to all the culprits.

"Before and after World War II, we had Stalinists and Soviet spies at the highest levels of American culture and government," Buchanan wrote.

"As for Russian trolling in our election, do we really have clean hands when it comes to meddling in elections and the internal politics of regimes we dislike? Did America have no active role in the "color-coded revolutions" that have changed regimes from Serbia to Ukraine to Georgia?"


Buchanan said the Mueller probe apparently hasn't probed Democratic collusion with Russia despite evidence that the Clinton campaign and the DNC paid former British spy Christopher Steele, to collude "with Kremlin agents" to produce a "scurrilous" dossier designed to derail the Trump candidacy.


"Why is this conspiracy and collusion with Russians less worthy of Mueller's attention than a troll farm in St. Petersburg?" Buchanan concluded.- Newsmax Jan 8, 2018

All of it sickens me. Which side colluded more or illegally? What a mess.

It's pretty obvious. There is a difference between paying someone to do opposition research and being approached by Russia with offers of aid in the election. The dossier, so called to make it sound like something insidious, is nothing outside the realm of everyday politics. Being approached by the Russians with hacked information and offers of other aid is a different thing altogether. One is paying a third party to gather information, the other is colluding with a foreign power.

 

[Phantasman]

It's pretty obvious. There is a difference between paying someone to do opposition research and being approached by Russia with offers of aid in the election. The dossier, so called to make it sound like something insidious, is nothing outside the realm of everyday politics. Being approached by the Russians with hacked information and offers of other aid is a different thing altogether. One is paying a third party to gather information, the other is colluding with a foreign power.

At this point, we are a jury listening to attorneys (from both sides). Attorneys are professionals at creating their own views and making people see them, right or wrong. I know because I put a child through law school. Forensics classes are attaining the abilities to convince the class that the sky is red with convincing evidence. IOW, creating an argument to make people see your perspective over anothers.

I don't fall for the medias conclusions, Nunes or Schiffs, because there isn't one yet.

I'll wait until all facts come to light, and people are held justified. Predicting a football games score before the game is played is speculation. Both sides think they will win in the end. But in the end we know, not the beginning or during. I'll wait till people start seeing sentences being imposed, rather than charges against them.

Innocent until "proven" guilty is still my America.

 

[Underhill]

At this point, we are a jury listening to attorneys (from both sides). Attorneys are professionals at creating their own views and making people see them, right or wrong. I know because I put a child through law school. Forensics classes are attaining the abilities to convince the class that the sky is red with convincing evidence. IOW, creating an argument to make people see your perspective over anothers.

I don't fall for the medias conclusions, Nunes or Schiffs, because there isn't one yet.

I'll wait until all facts come to light, and people are held justified. Predicting a football games score before the game is played is speculation. Both sides think they will win in the end. But in the end we know, not the beginning or during. I'll wait till people start seeing sentences being imposed, rather than charges against them.

Innocent until "proven" guilty is still my America.

I'm basing it on the simple facts. One hired a contractor to gather information. It might be unethical (although it certainly isn't a new practice, I'd be amazed if multiple campaigns didn't do the same thing) , but it is certainly legal. The other did not, and was approached by the Russians directly. These facts are not in dispute.

Trumps PR team is trying to make the public think they are the same thing but legally the only question is whether the Trumps can be proven to have agreed to Russian assistance. Even then I'm not sure it is illegal, but it is off the charts ethically.

 

[esmith]

Interesting opinion
The left’s fever dream of Mueller indicting Trump won’t happen, even if he finds something. Here’s why

 

[idav]

Interesting opinion
The left’s fever dream of Mueller indicting Trump won’t happen, even if he finds something. Here’s why

That is correct, this country does not indict sitting presidents they use something called the impeachment process.

 

[Phantasman]

I'm basing it on the simple facts. One hired a contractor to gather information. It might be unethical (although it certainly isn't a new practice, I'd be amazed if multiple campaigns didn't do the same thing) , but it is certainly legal. The other did not, and was approached by the Russians directly. These facts are not in dispute.

Trumps PR team is trying to make the public think they are the same thing but legally the only question is whether the Trumps can be proven to have agreed to Russian assistance. Even then I'm not sure it is illegal, but it is off the charts ethically.

There were a lot of things that effected the election. I watched as many things that happened on both sides were unethical but passed the smell test. Including a MSM that spun things to view one candidate over another.

In the end, I believe that a suspecting amount of American people had had enough of the politics as usual and decided to put someone into office that didn't promise the world and deliver nothing. I see the attack on Trump as political from a political side who lost. But so far, he has done what he said he would do, and continues to seek to do what he said he wanted to do in his election bid. The side who didn't vote for him, didn't because they don't want what he said to happen. So now the question becomes, how did Trump win?

To say that Trump was voted in by the Russians over the American people is surely an attack on, not only our electoral process, but a slap in the face of every American that voted for Trump. There is no doubt that the country's voting populace is divided. Yes, pretty much half and half. The voting populace, which doesn't include every American that didn't or doesn't vote, which outnumber those that did.

Many Americans gave up voting due to the "politics as usual", neither side being worthy of their time to vote. In the past year, I see the results of Trump moving this country. Some like the movement, others don't. I see the Democrat talking points as trying to create an illusion when Trump is creating a reality.

Trump gives a tax break to most Americans. The illusion by Dems say it is crumbs, that big business gets the benefits and households lose money as we go further into debt.

The truth. The stock market is escalating. More jobs are created by businesses. The private sector leaves government subsidies in favor of higher earnings, benefiting government spending. The economy improves to allow the housing industry to raise the government loan process from 3% to 4,4%. The government makes more revenue. The people making more can, due to the tax cut, afford more. Housing increases. New housing brings jobs. The economy gains strength, the stock market (investors) buys rather than sells due to the predictions (futures).

The tax cut was nothing more than the government "investing" money to get a "return" on investments. And it's working. Trump see's this and says "let's continue investing" in infrastructure, giving back to the process, like applying oil to rusty cogs in a machine so it can run easier more fluidly. The oil is the investment of jobs and structures that will "return" a more efficient product.

This is called capitalism. Obama wasn't a capitalist. He spent 10 trillion dollars and what did he invest in that brought a return in investment? Name one? Paris Climate Accord? Iran? Libya? Obamacare?(insurance companies all bailed out due to loses). We owe 10 trillion in debt under Obama with nothing to show for it. Not even an improved military, but a depleted one).

So Trump tries to move the economy and the Democrats tried to create an illusion that it would be a disaster. Well he did and it wasn't. Let's move to another illusion. He's President because Russians wound up getting him voted in.

As things start moving for Americans, it will be interesting to see all of this exposed, and see how the people vote in November. By that time, we should have a better idea whether Trump should continue what he's doing, or stop him until we can vote in another that returns us to the policies of 2008-2016.

Maybe the Chinese will help this time.

 

[esmith]

That is correct, this country does not indict sitting presidents they use something called the impeachment process.

But that takes Congress and with the Republicans controlling both chambers that is unlikely. However it is only a simple majority in the House to submit to the Senate the Articles of Impeachment. So let's say the Dem's take the House in 2018, they could vote for impeachment, but reaching the Senate becomes a completely different story. Even if the Dem's take the Senate it still takes a 2/3 supermajority to impeach..... 67 votes, I don't see them reaching 67 members and the Republicans are not going to immolate themselves.

 

[Phantasman]

That is correct, this country does not indict sitting presidents they use something called the impeachment process.

True. Impeachment is against an individual. In any office. Most people step down when they see impeachment is inevitable or best for the office.

People like Flynn may or may not have been impeached. Same with Eric Holder.

But to impeach doesn't always result in deposing. Bill Clinton was impeached, but was allowed to hold office till term end. The process has to be led by the House Judiciary and needs enough from both sides to decide they no longer have to follow the executive branch of President. This happened to Nixon but not Clinton.

The word impeachment is thrown around a lot, like the words racial and sexist. Unless Trump is shown without doubt that he "personally" violated the anti-trust laws of the US, he isn't going to be impeached. If his campaign members have been shown to violate those laws, they face the charges themselves. Unless something is proven that Trump himself was to blame for their actions, he isn't even in the race.

So far, there has been nothing found against Trump himself. Doesn't mean the investigation won't find something, they just haven't so far. And the proof is even seen when "anyone" in either party is asked point blank "do you have proof?" the answer is always "let the investigation move forward to determine the truth".

 

[Phantasman]

But that takes Congress and with the Republicans controlling both chambers that is unlikely. However it is only a simple majority in the House to submit to the Senate the Articles of Impeachment. So let's say the Dem's take the House in 2018, they could vote for impeachment, but reaching the Senate becomes a completely different story. Even if the Dem's take the Senate it still takes a 2/3 supermajority to impeach..... 67 votes, I don't see them reaching 67 members and the Republicans are not going to immolate themselves.

Again, minds can be changed if facts arise. It happened with Nixon. Both sides had enough votes to impeach after he convinced people "I am not a crook".

 

[idav]

But that takes Congress and with the Republicans controlling both chambers that is unlikely. However it is only a simple majority in the House to submit to the Senate the Articles of Impeachment. So let's say the Dem's take the House in 2018, they could vote for impeachment, but reaching the Senate becomes a completely different story. Even if the Dem's take the Senate it still takes a 2/3 supermajority to impeach..... 67 votes, I don't see them reaching 67 members and the Republicans are not going to immolate themselves.

Though technically if it reaches the Senate that’s the same as indictment/impeachment. Clinton for example was impeached but was acquitted on whatever the heck those charges were, perjury I believe.