Muhammad is not Seal of Prophets, He is Ring of Prophets!

[InvestigateTruth]

This thread in a way is a continuation of another thread:

What Questions come to your mind when reading Quran 3:7?

In my opinion, and personal experience, verse 3:7, is like a key that unlocks true understanding of not only the Quran, but also, it is a key to understanding all Revelations from God being Abrahamic or non-Abrahamic. 2 So, I am curious, if you read verse 3:7 of the Quran, does it cause you to...

www.religiousforums.com

Although it may not be clear at first how they are related.

For those who do not read Arabic, this would seem strange if they are told that the true and correct translation of the verse of Quran, commonly known as where it says "Seal of Prophets", indeed from linguistic point view is a common wrong translation. It is widespread false translation for generations. When a false idea spreads worldwide, for generations, then no body thinks ever, ever that they were told wrong.

Even for Arabs, and Persians this may seem a false claim, to tell them, this word known as Khaatam (خاتَم) DID NOT mean Seal or Last at the time of Revelation of the Quran.

Those who know Arabic well at the expert level, in fact should know that, there are two similar words, one is Khaatam, and another Khaatim. They are both written the same in Arabic: خاتم. But pronounced differently. While the Latter means "Terminator", the former means "Ring". In fact even today, if you go to a Jewelry in an Arab country and want to buy a Ring, you ask for خاتم.

You don't believe me? Just look:

خاتم - Google Search

Even look here:

Seal of Solomon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More precisely Khaatam, in Classical and early Islam meant a "Signet Ring"



Now, then how the Quran Translators ended up translating it as "Last"?

 

[stvdv]

Now, then how the Quran Translators ended up translating it as "Last"?

Easy to answer:
The translator suffered from Spiritual Arrogance

Note: Arrogant people are blinded from worldly POV, but even more so from Spiritual POV

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

@InvestigateTruth

Can you tell me what "ring of prophets" means? According to the Baha'i Faith what was Muhammad's role as this "ring" of prophets? Does ring, as referred to here, a prophet that cumulates prophecies, making him the "ring-leader" of prophets? And how does Muhammad role as the ring make him different than the seal?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@InvestigateTruth

Can you tell me what "ring of prophets" means? According to the Baha'i Faith what was Muhammad's role as this "ring" of prophets? Does ring, as referred to here, a prophet that cumulates prophecies, making him the "ring-leader" of prophets? And how does Muhammad role as the ring make him different than the seal?

From linguistic point of view, it means "Signet Ring", which is a Ring with an ornament that something or some words are engraved on it.
It could have been used to stamp a document as well.
But "Seal of Prophets " is inaccurate, because in English, "Seal" can mean different things.

But in Classical Arabic, when they wanted to emphasize Station of a Person, they said it with this word. For example, "Ring of Poets", "Ring of Believers", "Ring of Immigrants",..etc.

It is a symbology, as if, let's say, a Ring, that qualifies a person to be a Poet, a Believer, or a Prophet. This is just how it was used in Classical Arabic.
So, Ring of Prophets, symbolically means, Muhammad is a Ring, that only when other Prophets wore the Ring, then they had permission to be a Prophet. There is a Hadith that exactly says this.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Easy to answer:
The translator suffered from Spiritual Arrogance

Note: Arrogant people are blinded from worldly POV, but even more so from Spiritual POV

So, can you take a guess how the OP, is related to 3:7?

 

[stvdv]

So, can you take a guess how the OP, is related to 3:7?

Aha Koran 3:7....my favorite Koan verse

Yes, that's clear to me

Those who are unable or unwilling to listen to their conscience or even go against it, go against Truth, hence faulty interpretations are bound to occur

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Aha Koran 3:7....my favorite Koan verse

Yes, that's clear to me

Those who are unable or unwilling to listen to their conscience or even go against it, go against Truth, hence faulty interpretations are bound to occur

Are you referring to the clear verses or unclear and unspecified verses though?

So, the verse that says, Muhammad is the Signet Ring of Prophets, would it be a clear verse or unspecified verse, based on verses classification in 3:7?

 

[danieldemol]

From linguistic point of view, it means "Signet Ring", which is a Ring with an ornament that something or some words are engraved on it.
It could have been used to stamp a document as well.
But "Seal of Prophets " is inaccurate, because in English, "Seal" can mean different things.

So are you saying Shoghi Effendi got it wrong when he had it translated as "seal" in the Iqan?

And sure seal can mean different things, "chilli" can mean different things but that doesn't mean it is inaccurate to translate those hot peppers as "chilli" just because it accurately describes relative temperature in another context.

I believe is quite accurate to describe a signet ring used to "seal" or stamp or close documents in the old days as a guarantee of authenticity as a "seal" in that context.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So are you saying Shoghi Effendi got it wrong when he had it translated as "seal" in the Iqan?

And sure seal can mean different things, "chilli" can mean different things but that doesn't mean it is inaccurate to translate those hot peppers as "chilli" just because it accurately describes relative temperature in another context.

I believe is quite accurate to describe a signet ring used to "seal" or stamp or close documents in the old days as a guarantee of authenticity as a "seal" in that context.

In my opinion.

Shoghi Effendi just used a translation of the Quran.
Question for you. Before knowing it means signet Ring, When you read "Seal of Prophets", did you think it is Seal as in stamp, or you thought it is Seal as in closing?
Now that you know, it is Signet Ring, do you get a different sense of it?

I am just curious

 

[danieldemol]

Shoghi Effendi just used a translation of the Quran.

Perhaps, but was he wrong to use that translation?

Question for you. Before knowing it means signet Ring, When you read "Seal of Prophets", did you think it is Seal as in stamp, or you thought it is Seal as in closing?
Now that you know, it is Signet Ring, do you get a different sense of it?

I am just curious

It was a reference to a signet ring used for stamping an authentic letter closed, so I believe your question doesn't make sense.
In my opinion

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Perhaps, but was he wrong to use that translation?

It was a reference to a signet ring used for stamping an authentic letter closed, so I believe your question doesn't make sense.
In my opinion

I think my question is very clear. Does the word Seal, and Signet Ring both give the same sense, "Signet Ring of Prophets", vs. "Seal of Prophets"?

"Seal of Prophets", can denote One who closes Prophethood. I have seen this understanding from non-muslims.

No, I don't think Shoghi Effendi was wrong, because Baha'u'llah did not care to say what Seal means. He said He is the Manifestation of God, so regardless if Prophethood is closed or whatever, God Himself has come on the Day of Resurrection.

 

[danieldemol]

I think my question is very clear. Does the word Seal, and Signet Ring both give the same sense, "Signet Ring of Prophets", vs. "Seal of Prophets"?

"Seal of Prophets", can denote One who closes Prophethood. I have seen this understanding from non-muslims.

No, I don't think Shoghi Effendi was wrong, because Baha'u'llah did not care to say what Seal means. He said He is the Manifestation of God, so regardless if Prophethood is closed or whatever, God Himself has come on the Day of Resurrection.

In my view your question is clear - clearly nonsensical that is. Since it was a signet ring to seal documents closed you are simply trying to redefine the term to suit your personal apologetics, but since even Shoghi Effendi has agreed the term means "seal" and according to you he is not wrong, I believe it becomes glaringly apparent what you are trying to do (ie mislead people away from its intended meaning).

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In my view your question is clear - clearly nonsensical that is. Since it was a signet ring to seal documents closed you are simply trying to redefine the term to suit your personal apologetics, but since even Shoghi Effendi has agreed the term means "seal" and according to you he is not wrong, I believe it becomes glaringly apparent what you are trying to do (ie mislead people away from its intended meaning).

In my opinion.

So, you believe Muhammad meant to say He is the Final Prophet?

By the way, a signet ring is not used to seal a document closed. It was used to stamp a document to confirm it is authentic by the author.

 

[danieldemol]

So, you believe Muhammad meant to say He is the Final Prophet?

By the way, a signet ring is not used to seal a document closed. It was used to stamp a document to confirm it is authentic by the author.

I have no way of knowing whether Muhammad meant He is the Final Prophet, but according to my understanding of the dogmatic narrative this verse is alleged to have been revealed because a person wanted to claim a status similar to Aaron being a prophet after Moses.

Of course there is no way of knowing the historical reliability of this narrative, but I think we can confirm the 21st century narrative of yourself is not historical either.

Anyhow all this is a moot point since Shoghi Effendi confirms the original intended meaning is "seal" which means for Baha'i it is "seal" so you appear to be denying the earlier narrative in an attempt to make your apologetic sales pitch easier, but in so doing you make your apologetics attempt irreconcilable with Shoghi Effendi's confirmation.

In my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have no way of knowing whether Muhammad meant He is the Final Prophet, but according to my understanding of the dogmatic narrative this verse is alleged to have been revealed because a person wanted to claim a status similar to Aaron being a prophet after Moses.

Of course there is no way of knowing the historical reliability of this narrative, but I think we can confirm the 21st century narrative of yourself is not historical either.

Anyhow all this is a moot point since Shoghi Effendi confirms the original intended meaning is "seal" which means for Baha'i it is "seal" so you appear to be denying the earlier narrative in an attempt to make your apologetic sales pitch easier, but in so doing you make your apologetics attempt irreconcilable with Shoghi Effendi's confirmation.

In my opinion.

Well, I just proved it with the links provided in OP, it means Signet Ring.
Why Shoghi Effendi just decided to use the existing translations, is another thing.

 

[Truthseeker]

This thread in a way is a continuation of another thread:

What Questions come to your mind when reading Quran 3:7?

In my opinion, and personal experience, verse 3:7, is like a key that unlocks true understanding of not only the Quran, but also, it is a key to understanding all Revelations from God being Abrahamic or non-Abrahamic. 2 So, I am curious, if you read verse 3:7 of the Quran, does it cause you to...

www.religiousforums.com

Although it may not be clear at first how they are related.

For those who do not read Arabic, this would seem strange if they are told that the true and correct translation of the verse of Quran, commonly known as where it says "Seal of Prophets", indeed from linguistic point view is a common wrong translation. It is widespread false translation for generations. When a false idea spreads worldwide, for generations, then no body thinks ever, ever that they were told wrong.

Even for Arabs, and Persians this may seem a false claim, to tell them, this word known as Khaatam (خاتَم) DID NOT mean Seal or Last at the time of Revelation of the Quran.

Those who know Arabic well at the expert level, in fact should know that, there are two similar words, one is Khaatam, and another Khaatim. They are both written the same in Arabic: خاتم. But pronounced differently. While the Latter means "Terminator", the former means "Ring". In fact even today, if you go to a Jewelry in an Arab country and want to buy a Ring, you ask for خاتم.

You don't believe me? Just look:

خاتم - Google Search

Even look here:

Seal of Solomon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More precisely Khaatam, in Classical and early Islam meant a "Signet Ring"



Now, then how the Quran Translators ended up translating it as "Last"?

It's good to have an expert on this, because of your Persian background! However, these people you are talking to are not experts, and won't trust you unless they are presdisposed to.

 

[Truthseeker]

In the Study Qur'an I have hadiths are cited to prove that Muhammad is the last prophet. he is reported to have said "No Prophethood shall remain after me, save in true visions". "Messengerhood and prophethood have ceased. There will be no messenger or prophet after me."

What does "no messenger" mean? It seems to mean more than not prophesizing. Is this Hadith reliable?

 

[danieldemol]

Well, I just proved it with the links provided in OP, it means Signet Ring.
Why Shoghi Effendi just decided to use the existing translations, is another thing.

Your links are not telling all the information in my opinion.
It is telling half the truth which is misleading. The purpose of the signet ring in historical context is as a seal.
From Wikipedia;
'A seal is a device for making an impression in wax, clay, paper, or some other medium, including an embossment on paper, and is also the impression thus made.'

'A signet ring is a ring bearing on its flat top surface the equivalent of a seal. A typical signet ring has a design, often a family or personal crest, created in intaglio so that it will leave a raised (relief) impression of the design when the ring is pressed onto liquid sealing wax.'
Source: Seal (emblem) - Wikipedia.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

It's good to have an expert on this, because of your Persian background! However, these people you are talking to are not experts, and won't trust you unless they are presdisposed to.

I believe having a Persian background is not enough to make her an expert on seventh century arab signet rings.
In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

@Truthseeker
It is interesting that you prefer InvestigateTruth's interpretation of the Iqan to Shoghi Effendi's, Shoghi Effendi has translated Baha'u'llah's words reffering to Muhammad to mean both "seal" and "last".

I'll have to remember that amongst the central figures of the Baha'i faith now InvestigateTruth is ranked over Shoghi Effendi in the new Baha'i pecking order.

Boy oh boy how much do religions change from the time of their foundation.
In my opinion