• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Muhammad's Sword !!!

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Muhammad's Sword

by Uri Avnery
(Saturday September 23 2006)​

"The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body.

How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

When Manuel II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.
During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

Is there any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.
Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?
Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Continue ...


In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

There is no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

Why? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

Source: http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/35741


I posted this article because the writer analyze the pope speech in historical way and to show a light into the relationship between Muslims, Christians and Jewish in the past. It talks also about the "spreading the faith by the sword" myth.

I would like to see any comment regarding this article, any thoughts.

Thank you. :)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
"As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate." (And then he does just that, lol.)

Can anyone tell me what a Jewish Atheist is? I can see him being an "Israeli atheist", but a Jewish Atheist? I don't get it. I can also understand a UU/Atheist... but this... sorry... does not compute. It's sort of hitting me the same way a "Muslim atheist" would strike me. Ergo... you cannot be a Muslim and an atheist. So how does one remain a Jew and claim to be an atheist? Does not compute. I'm thinking "agenda", myself.

As to what he has to say... well, let's get past square one first.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
YmirGF said:
"As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate." (And then he does just that, lol.)

Can anyone tell me what a Jewish Atheist is? I can see him being an "Israeli atheist", but a Jewish Atheist? I don't get it. I can also understand a UU/Atheist... but this... sorry... does not compute. It's sort of hitting me the same way a "Muslim atheist" would strike me. Ergo... you cannot be a Muslim and an atheist. So how does one remain a Jew and claim to be an atheist? Does not compute. I'm thinking "agenda", myself.

As to what he has to say... well, let's get past square one first.

ummm he's got a jewish mama, was raised with the knowledge of his jewish heritage (perhaps predominantly a cultural, not really religious) and is an atheist.

it's not that hard to understand...many see the concept of being Jewish as an ethnic/cultural identity more so than a religious one...sorta like be Italian-american i suppose.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
hmmm it would be interesting to compare this work with that of "Under Crescent and Cross: Jews in the Middle Ages" By Dr. Mark Cohen

but i'll have to wait till later today to get my hands on my copy.

what i will say is that, from my understanding of jews in the middle ages under both Islamic and Christian rule...if i had my choice...i would live in the Islamic world...probably Egypt in the time of the Rambam.

but that's sorta like asking a black man if he would prefer living in Alabama in 1830 or 1930.

i would still be a second class citizen not equal in rights to a muslim.
 

Djamila

Bosnjakinja
It's strange how you develop these little prejudices and don't even realize it? I read "By Uri Avnery" and I thought: Oh God, do I have the heart to sit through this right now?

Well, I'm glad he mentioned that Bosniaks converted largely of their own accord, which I can vouch for. I cannot speak for Albanians, though, I'm not well-versed in their particular history.

I'm glad he mentioned the Ottoman Empire's Jewish heritage. It's a particular fascination of mine, I've studied everything I possibly can about Sephardic Bosnia and the wider Sephardic world.
 

kai

ragamuffin
The Truth said:
Muhammad's Sword

by Uri Avnery
(Saturday September 23 2006)​

"The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body.

How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

When Manuel II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.
During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

Is there any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.
Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?
Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits
.
this duress would not include the battle of kosovo 1 and 2 and the battles of Varna? and this seems to be at odds with albanian history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ottoman_Albania
and greek history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece
and he didnt mention the tribute of children
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
kai said:
this duress would not include the battle of kosovo 1 and 2 and the battles of Varna? and this seems to be at odds with albanian history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ottoman_Albania

And I take it that being a Dhimmi doesn't count as duress? And what about the Copts? Do you know why they are such a minority in Egypt and why they traditionally tattoo themselves with crosses? This article is not much more objective than the sort of anti-Islamic, all Muslims are terrorists ideas that the author is protesting about. As usual, the truth is that both Muslims and Christians were capable of and, in fact, commissioned acts of both goodness and evil.

James
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
The Truth said:
I posted this article because the writer analyze the pope speech in historical way and to show a light into the relationship between Muslims, Christians and Jewish in the past. It talks also about the "spreading the faith by the sword" myth.

I would like to see any comment regarding this article, any thoughts.

Thank you. :)

What sort of comment ? We all know that, sometime in History, every religion has done some "Spreading Faith by the sword "......no one is blameless; but we are talking about the harsh words from the Muslims Now.
 

kai

ragamuffin
I am still amazed by some muslims ability to totaly disregard the military conquests of half the known world and claim it has nothing to do with the spread of Islam
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
kai said:
I am still amazed by some muslims ability to totaly disregard the military conquests of half the known world and claim it has nothing to do with the spread of Islam

Well, there is another thread that deals with just that.
 

kai

ragamuffin
michel said:
Well, there is another thread that deals with just that.
yeah i know its probably mine but it keeps cropping up all over the place and the OP is full of it, so i cant help but answer
 

Laila

Active Member
Islam was spread by the sword, the sword of beautiful thinking, logic and intellect.
There are people who call themselves Muslims but don't follow the religion and commit crimes. However, it would be very silly to blame Islam for that. Blame the people who do such things but don't say it is from Islam as it is clearly not.

In debunking the myth that Islam was "spread by the sword", the (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O' Leary wrote;
"History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims
sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon
conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians
have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, page 8.)

It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it. This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered!
Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims!
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Very interesting article and personally given the choice between the Inquisition and Dhimmi status, I would choose the latter, obviously, and there is no doubt that at certain times in history living in a "Muslim" land such as the Ottoman Empire would be preferable to living in a "Christian" land at the same time in history. Vice versa would also be true at other times in history.

I did enjoy the article, but I don't exactly think that the article disproves the theory that Islam has been spread by the sword. Don't get me wrong, I also think Christianity has been spread by the sword. There were many more Indians/Native Americans killed by Christianity coming to the "New World" than there were Jews and Gypsies killed by Hitler during WWII.

I have no doubt that there have been people over time who have chosen to become Muslim by choice, for a variety of reasons, and I also have no doubt that there are people who felt that it was best for them (whether to keep their own head, or to be more politically/socially popular) to convert to Islam perhaps against their own will. The same can be said of Christianity as well, tho.

I must take issue, however, with the article referring to George Bush II as an Emperor. The United States is a Constitutional Republic by strict definition and has one MAJOR distinction with respect to all previous superpowers, be they the Ottomans, the Chi'ins, Romans, British, Portuguese, Spanish, French, etc. etc. etc. At this particular time in history, the U.S. could, if it chose to, militarily take over just about any country in the world, and add that country's resources and land mass to our own, but we do not do so.

Look at an old map of the world. The British Empire covered vast amounts of land. Why? Because the British had the power to colonize large tracts of land and chose to do so. The people of Brazil to this day speak Portuguese because Portugal had the means to colonize large tracts of land and did so. There are many in Congo who still speak French because until 1970 all that land was a colony of France. What is today the United States used to be a colony for the love of pete. USSR before Mr. Gorbechov (sp?) tore down that wall had overtaken many countries that now make up independant countries in Asia and Eastern Europe.

It is unfair and intellectually dishonest to refer to the U.S. of today in the same way as those who colonized in the past. They had the means to do so and did colonize other lands. We have the means to do so and choose not to. That is a difference. And don't give me any crap about us "colonizing" Afghanistan or Iraq. The people leading those countries are and will be freely elected by the people of their respective countries, unless and until some other influence besides self rule (Caliphate anyone?) is imposed on the peoples of those respective countries.

B.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Laila said:
It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it. This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered!
Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims!

yes lets not forget one of the best examples of these converts....Tamerlane.

i'm sure the people of india can tell you how Tamerlane spread with the sword of beautiful thinking, logic and intellect.:rolleyes:
 

Laila

Active Member
Tamerlane did commit some disgusting heinous crimes but wasn’t it for his own greed to maintain vast territories? He called himself "the scourge of God," believing he had been sent to earth to punish sinners. Though a Muslim, he drank and gambled in the tradition of a Mongol warrior. He is hardly a representative of Islam, or being a Muslim.

Hitler was a Catholic (and thought he was doing the Lords work) but he incinerated six million Jews during his reign of terror. Would you blame this on religion?
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Laila said:
Hitler was a Catholic (and thought he was doing the Lords work) but he incinerated six million Jews during his reign of terror. Would you blame this on religion?

To the extent that Hitler thought he was doing God's work, YES, I would.

B.
 
Top