Muslim Reform Movement

[Useless2015]

So attack Europeans, attack the Jews, attack America, anything but actually consider the need for Islam to reform.

Israelis are not all Jews.

 

[leibowde84]

Marriage in the Bible(OT or NT take your pick) is between man and a woman. It never occured to the authors of the Bible to incorporate something like gay marriage because the gays would be stoned to death before ever setting a date, let alone have an actual official wedding like man and woman lol...

It never mentions committed same sex relationships. It condemns promiscuity, imho.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Ofcourse Jizya is also to make the non-muslims feel submissive. To ensure complete authority and loyalty.

Straight from the horse's mouth. That's a turn of phrase, by the way. I don't actually think you're a horse. Pro-tip, taxes do not ensure loyalty. People hate it when you take their money - especially when you do so for no good reason. People believing differently from you is not a good reason for taking their money. The jizyah breeds only resentment, and rightly so.

But you know, you are making it to be an evil aspect but it's not.

If I'm "making it to be an evil aspect" then, frankly, doing so is absolutely effortless. The immorality of the jizyah and how it's applied is plain for all civilised peoples to see. Because forcing extra financial burdens on those who believe differently from you is evil. Say, if European nations ever start levying a specific tax on Muslims because they're Muslims then that won't be evil or discrimination according to you, right?.

I think the actions of Christians and Jews in the past who left Christian nations to live in the Caliphate despite the 'evil' Jizya say a whole lot about how bad Jizya actually is.

Or it could be because their leaders were repressive monsters who spread lies about their beliefs and discriminated against them terribly, and the Caliphate was seen as the lesser of two evils. I'll bet the Jews and Christians were pretty disappointed when they actually got there and found they had to fork over extra money - compared to Muslims - at the point of a sword.

It doesn't bother me. I was relating to Zakaat because its discriminatory aswell.

Nope. Zakat is a religious duty, the goal of which is to help the poor. It's supposed to be an acknowledgement that Allah is the giver of all wealth. Jizyah has no such benevolence nor religious purpose - it's simply about repression (you admitted that at the start of your post) and religious coercion.

Than why do the rich pay more?

Because the rich invariably consume more of a nation's resources (as in physical resources in addition to labour hours and use of a workforce) in acquiring their wealth than those who earn less. Also, those who are wealthier generally need larger amounts of money when requesting assistance from the State when they do run into trouble (see the UK financial crash of 2008).

 

[paarsurrey]

Don't like it.
To reform Islam would be what we call bidah. And it's a major sin.
And a Muslim should not choose secular law over Islamic law. I find it quite interesting that these people said, "We are for secular governance...We oppose institutionalized sharia. Sharia is manmade."
There is no problem with Islam. There is a problem with people not taking the time to learn it and there is a problem with people wanting to follow their own desires while still claiming to be Muslim.

Only Imam Mahdi and Messiah about whom Muhammad himself prophesied of coming, could only re---form Islam, nobody else could do it. Right?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

That would be severe admitted fanaticism.
It is terribly sad that anyone would throw away academia, reason, and logic in favor of religious and mythological based laws.
Except for it breeding the highest amount terrorism and violence out of any other religion.
Except for the refusal of education and knowledge and history.
Except for being the most illiterate of all religious groups.

One may like to read Post #124 in this thread.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Except what ever sect you may be, ends up murdering those whom you personally feel does not worship correctly.
Is that not a lack of tolerance ?
The sectarian violence in islam has been nothing but pathetic.

Islam means peace. Violence against sects of Islam or against other religions is against Quran/Islam and Sunnah of Muhammad. You will agree here with me. Will you?Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Muslim (19:4294) - "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"
Bukhari (53:386) - "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master."
Ishaq 956 & 962 - "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."

Muslim,Bukhari and Ishaq are not Quran.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I've got nothing against Muslims, as long as they're willing to either co-exist with everyone else. It goes for everyone else too. I don't do double standards.

Quran/Islam/Muhammad promote peace and coexist with others amicably.
Regards

 

[outhouse]

One may like to read Post #124 in this thread.

If one wants a apologetic personal opinion with no credibility what so ever.

 

[outhouse]

Quran/Islam/Muhammad promote peace and coexist with others amicably.
Regards

Muhammad spilled blood to promote his theology and mythology.

mulsims have been killing each other over religion since the religion started.

They constantly proselytize rhetoric the whole academic world is against their pseudoscientific and pseudohistorical faith.

 

[outhouse]

Islam means peace.

Yet they are the most violent constantly warring religion there is. You ignore the sectarian violence that kills millions.

Violence against sects of Islam or against other religions is against Quran/Islam and Sunnah of Muhammad

muhammad was a warrior who spilled blood and took advantage of children, and married a cousin, and the book has 10% violent passages.

 

[Useless2015]

Straight from the horse's mouth. That's a turn of phrase, by the way. I don't actually think you're a horse. Pro-tip, taxes do not ensure loyalty. People hate it when you take their money - especially when you do so for no good reason. People believing differently from you is not a good reason for taking their money. The jizyah breeds only resentment, and rightly so.

Aren't freedom of religion, safety and personal freedom good reasons?

If I'm "making it to be an evil aspect" then, frankly, doing so is absolutely effortless. The immorality of the jizyah and how it's applied is plain for all civilised peoples to see. Because forcing extra financial burdens on those who believe differently from you is evil. Say, if European nations ever start levying a specific tax on Muslims because they're Muslims then that won't be evil or discrimination according to you, right?.

You know there has been a recent motion in the Dutch parlement to vote on wether muslims should pay a special tax for wearing a headscarf. In France, Belgium and Netherlands wearing a muslim gear results in a fine. Do you think that's evil too? Especially seeing how the West always speaks about religious equality, humanism, democracy...

Or it could be because their leaders were repressive monsters who spread lies about their beliefs and discriminated against them terribly, and the Caliphate was seen as the lesser of two evils. I'll bet the Jews and Christians were pretty disappointed when they actually got there and found they had to fork over extra money - compared to Muslims - at the point of a sword.

They valued their lifes, freedom and religion over 'tax'? That's the only logical reason i see for them to move to an Islamic Caliphate. They weren't dissapointed, you think they weren't aware of Jizya? Islam was already around for 600 years.

Nope. Zakat is a religious duty, the goal of which is to help the poor. It's supposed to be an acknowledgement that Allah is the giver of all wealth. Jizyah has no such benevolence nor religious purpose - it's simply about repression (you admitted that at the start of your post) and religious coercion.

Do non-muslims under sharia have to pay zakaat?

Because the rich invariably consume more of a nation's resources (as in physical resources in addition to labour hours and use of a workforce) in acquiring their wealth than those who earn less. Also, those who are wealthier generally need larger amounts of money when requesting assistance from the State when they do run into trouble (see the UK financial crash of 2008).

So what you said about everyone is equal and has to pay is not true?

 

[icehorse]

Useless said:

...You know there has been a recent motion in the Dutch parlement to vote on wether muslims should pay a special tax for wearing a headscarf. In France, Belgium and Netherlands wearing a muslim gear results in a fine. Do you think that's evil too? Especially seeing how the West always speaks about religious equality, humanism, democracy...

Without doing a lick of research, I could guess this could be because of the increased cost of policing masked citizens?

 

[paarsurrey]

Only Imam Mahdi and Messiah about whom Muhammad himself prophesied of coming, could only re---form Islam, nobody else could do it. Right?
Regards

One could describe it as the revival of Islam of Muhammad's time, also.
Regards

 

[ArtieE]

One could describe it as the revival of Islam of Muhammad's time, also.
Regards

Is this an accurate description of Islam?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace-loving.html

 

[YmirGF]

Is this an accurate description of Islam?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace-loving.html

It your average anti-islam polemic. There is some truth to it, but a lot of hyperventilating as well.

 

[ArtieE]

It your average anti-islam polemic. There is some truth to it, but a lot of hyperventilating as well.

What is true about it?

 

[outhouse]

Is this an accurate description of Islam?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace-loving.html

Apologetic rhetoric for the most part.

 

[ArtieE]

Apologetic rhetoric for the most part.

But is the description of Islam correct?

 

[YmirGF]

What is true about it?

You're not serious are you? You want me to critique the entire thing for your edification?

I'll be kind. Find a few books about early Islam and sit down and read them. I highly recommend the numerous works of Prof. Bernard Lewis as his writing is very thorough and highly readable.


I just was reading the article and wanted to see if I could pick out one or two things they got right when I got this message.

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /Terrorism/peace-loving.html on this server.

Interesting timing, I'll say that.

and now it's back.... guess they were updating it or summin'