Muslim Reform Movement

[Useless2015]

Interesting.
Us Westerners have a term for that. We call it a protection racket.


To get back on topic though, the Muslim Reform Movement sounds like a good idea. I sincerely hope it gains traction among Muslims. I have to admit though, I fear it won't.

I thought it was called the police lol. Doesnt the police get paid with your taxmoney?

 

[leibowde84]

I thought it was called the police lol. Doesnt the police get paid with your taxmoney?

Yeah, but you don't have to pay extra taxes because of your religion. That would be unconstitutional, illegal, and discriminatory.

 

[Useless2015]

There are some who think that their religious beliefs give them a free pass from adhering to US Law. But, I trying to figure out exactly what you meant when you said that "the majority of Muslims internationally would like Sharia law.

Do you have some examples?

 

[outhouse]

One where freedom, peace and safety are guaranteed.

But only after they murder everyone with different beliefs, and ruining lives by promoting mythology most do not understand, which in context means all the followers who refuse reality. Throwing out REAL science and history in favor of a primitive understanding of nature, with only one religious version criticized for factual errors ?

Is combining religion and government primitive?

 

[Erebus]

I thought it was called the police lol. Doesnt the police get paid with your taxmoney?

Your analogy doesn't work. The police offer universal protection (in theory anyway).

What you're suggesting is a special tax for a particular group to ensure they can go about their business undisturbed. That might seem innocent to you, in fact I imagine you see it as a genuinely benevolent thing. To somebody such as myself, it's an idea that comes across as more than a little sinister.

EDIT:

I just realised, your reference to the police wasn't meant as an analogy was it? That's somehow more disturbing.

 

[Useless2015]

Yeah, but you don't have to pay extra taxes because of your religion. That would be unconstitutional, illegal, and discriminatory.

Its taxes not extra taxes. And muslims in Sharia because of their religion are required to pay for the poor. Isnt that unconstitutional, illegal and discriminatory aswell?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

What barbaric actions?

I already listed them in my previous post: Marrying adults to prepubescent children and then consummating said marriage, forcing non-Muslims to pay for the 'crime' of continuing to be non-Muslims, persecuting other belief systems simply for being different to your own, killing or imprisoning people who leave your religion etc. If you need to keep your religion needs to keep its numbers up by threatening the lives of those who leave then your religion is probably not all you've made it out to be.

No it doesn't work that way. There are clear rules about that in the Quran and only allowed to marry with permission with girls who reached the age of puberty.

Yet Muhammed is on record in the Hadith as having ignored his own advice. Not for the first time; he writes that "Allah loves not aggressors" and to fight defensive wars but he:

• launched raids against Mecca's caravans from his own base of operations - not a defensive action.
• after conquering Mecca he launched two attacks on the city of Ta'if - at least one attack was supported by siege engines - not a defensive action.

Its not extra taxes

Taxes only non-Muslims are expected to pay because they are non-Muslim e.g. an extra financial burden. Those are extra taxes. If a tax was levied on people in Europe who were Muslim - because they are Muslim - would you still claim such taxes were not discriminatory?

its taxes for security to practice their faith without being disturbed or discriminated.

A just regime would either increase taxes on everyone for this or would not increase taxes at all to allow them to continue to practise their beliefs without the added onus of paying protection money. Only non-Muslims have to pay it because Islamic societies are too busy engaging in gangster tactics (pay us extra money, O dhimmis, or we'll smash your churches up!) to sit down and think of what religious toleration actually means.

Also i like to add that Muslims are forced in Sharia(if able) to pay for the poor of society and non-muslims aren't.

If you view zakat as something you're forced to do then perhaps you're not acting or thinking charitably and thus are not giving thanks to Allah for the wealth he gives you. Additionally, using zakat to free slaves is a tacit admission that in Islamic societies slavery is acceptable.

Where does the Quran say that?

Quran 2:191-193 "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

I've got a list of these; I could go on if you'd like.

You mean they want to cherry pick like Christians and Jews? Why believe in God if you don't believe in his Words?

Do you accept every single hadith as being true?

They haven't got the right idea, they are sugarcoating Islaam just so people like you can say 'muslims are humans too'. As for me as a muslim, i don't need your approval.

Uh, no. I'm not naive or arrogant enough to view people who believe differently from me to be subhuman; nor that they're only worthy of basic human decency if their beliefs conform to my own. I'll leave that to you.

I know that Islaam does not teach anything hurtful

Who are you trying to fool; me or yourself?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am a supporter of a Caliphate
One where freedom, peace and safety are guaranteed.

Lol. You can't be free, safe or at peace living under a theocratic empire that views itself as being at war with the kafir (non-believers who aren't paying the mafia protection racket money (jizyah) and who don't "feel themselves subdued").

 

[Useless2015]

So, are you an isolationist in this regard? Or, would you be willing to adhere to the international laws on human rights?

Islam is enough for me. I don't need international laws to know every human is equal and deserves equal treatment.

 

[leibowde84]

Do you have some examples?

Here is one example. There are many more that are easily found with a quick google search.
http://nationalreport.net/city-michigan-first-fully-implement-sharia-law/

 

[leibowde84]

Its taxes not extra taxes. And muslims in Sharia because of their religion are required to pay for the poor. Isnt that unconstitutional, illegal and discriminatory aswell?

I was under the impression, and I know this is the case in the ISIS Caliphate, that non-Muslims must pay a tax BECAUSE they are non-Muslim.

And, as for poor people, in the US the State provides some help to the poor through the use of funds raised via taxation, but it certainly isn't enough, imho.

 

[leibowde84]

Islam is enough for me. I don't need international laws to know every human is equal and deserves equal treatment.

So, then you would be OK with your proposed caliphate being held accountable internationally if it breaks international human rights law?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Some Christians are. Not all of us. I'm not a fan of the "culture warrior" sort of Christians, myself. Funnily, those types aren't actually getting their social positions directly from the Bible.

The majority are tho.

Would you care to put a number to that feeling? More specifically, a verifiable statistic such as a survey of all or most of the world's Christian population that backs up your point of view?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Islam is enough for me. I don't need international laws to know every human is equal and deserves equal treatment.

Says the person who (presumably) believes it's acceptable to make non-Muslims pay extra taxes because they're non-Muslims. Do you even understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to believe your above statement and that the application of the jizyah is moral at the same time?!

A pity, then, that the Muslim countries who haven't signed up to the International Declaration on Human Rights have such a ****-poor track record of acknowledging the rights of religious minorities.

 

[Useless2015]

Here is one example. There are many more that are easily found with a quick google search.
http://nationalreport.net/city-michigan-first-fully-implement-sharia-law/

They are wrong for trying to put Islaamic laws in non-muslim country. Non-muslims have their own laws and i respect them

 

[Useless2015]

I was under the impression, and I know this is the case in the ISIS Caliphate, that non-Muslims must pay a tax BECAUSE they are non-Muslim.

And, as for poor people, in the US the State provides some help to the poor through the use of funds raised via taxation, but it certainly isn't enough, imho.

Yes and muslims have to pay for the poor BECAUSE they are muslim.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They are wrong for trying to put Islaamic laws in non-muslim country. Non-muslims have their own laws and i respect them

Yeah, until enough of your Muslim brethren flood into the country, right?

 

[leibowde84]

Why are Christians actively protesting abortion, gaymarriage and theory of evolution if the bible is just a book?

The Bible doesn't speak to same-sex marriage, abortion, or the theory of evolution. More and more Christians every day see Genesis as an allegory, not having anything to do with how it actually took place. It is a story meant to teach a moral lesson. Same-sex marriage isn't mentioned at all ... only non-committed homosexual conduct outside of marriage is, and any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage is said to be wrong. Finally, abortion is not mentioned at all.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes and muslims have to pay for the poor BECAUSE they are muslim.

Ok, so if you are a non-muslim you have to pay a tax to the state no matter whether you donate money to the poor or not. That means it is discriminatory by definition.

 

[Useless2015]

So, then you would be OK with your proposed caliphate being held accountable internationally if it breaks international human rights law?

No, accountable only to God.