Muslim scholar: Islam + violence are linked

[Rival]

History can be useful if we learn from it and modernize accordingly.

Christianity is far better at doing that than Islam is.

You have to remember that for Islam it's still 1400 Enlightenment next century.

 

[Akivah]

Any meaningful discussion of Islam and its role around the world in the 21st C really needs to acknowledge there are multiple Islams, and treating them as being the same thing is an impediment to clear thought and understanding. Just like people reflexively crying 'Islamophobia' is.


Thoughts?

We should start by not labeling all criticism of Islam as being Islamophobia. Actually, we shouldn't use that term anymore at all. It implies that someone is mentally deranged for criticizing Islam.

 

[RoaringSilence]

We should start by not labeling all criticism of Islam as being Islamophobia. Actually, we shouldn't use that term anymore at all. It implies that someone is mentally deranged for criticizing Islam.

im on the other side of this conclusion , rather make a legit disability and let people claim social security. That will bring out the truth...(if you catch my drift )

 

[Kuzcotopia]

We should start by not labeling all criticism of Islam as being Islamophobia. Actually, we shouldn't use that term anymore at all. It implies that someone is mentally deranged for criticizing Islam.

I think that the term is still useful.

I happen to think that many of the ideas of Islam are very destructive, and produce negative consequences for a couple billion people on this planet. Arguments that fall along those lines of belief are not islamaphobia.

However, there are going to be those in positions of power who waste time on conspiracy theories and inaccuracies in order to stoke the same fears in others that they have themselves. Worse, there are advocates for inappropriate social policies of segregation and exclusion based on that fear.

If you are afraid of Muslims, or want them to be excluded by stigma or law from being part of any aspect of your social world (country, state, club, employer, friendships, etc.), and you do that out of fear, then you are Islamaphobic.

I absolutely dislike Islam. But I am not scared of it. And I wouldn't advocate policies of separation or exclusion for reasons based on fear.

 

[Spiderman]

This thread is better than any of my threads on Islam. I'm done creating threads on Islam.

I'm troubled by radical monotheism in any sect, I just see it more today in Islam. I'm just going to have to not focus on it, for my own mental state and to respect what more than a billion people hold as sacred.

 

[shunyadragon]

History can be useful if we learn from it and modernize accordingly.

Christianity is far better at doing that than Islam is.

I disagree, for an example: Pogroms against the Jews are relatively recent 'modern' history.

 

[Akivah]

If you are afraid of Muslims, or want them to be excluded by stigma or law from being part of any aspect of your social world (country, state, club, employer, friendships, etc.), and you do that out of fear, then you are Islamaphobic.

This is not how the word is used. It is currently used to label anyone that criticizes Islam.

 

[sayak83]

We should start by not labeling all criticism of Islam as being Islamophobia. Actually, we shouldn't use that term anymore at all. It implies that someone is mentally deranged for criticizing Islam.

Yes. The term should be Muslimophobia.

 

[Quintessence]

This is not how the word is used. It is currently used to label anyone that criticizes Islam.

By some, sure. Others are more discerning in its use, as Kuzcotopia is. I don't use the term, largely because we already have a word to cover unequivocally painting members of a demographic group in a negative/hateful fashion: bigotry. And criticism is certainly not equivalent to bigotry.

 

[icehorse]

An interesting article for a variety of reasons:

Thanks for this OP!!!

 

[Kuzcotopia]

This is not how the word is used. It is currently used to label anyone that criticizes Islam.

I can't argue much with you there. . .

But it's how I like to use it and think about it.

 

[icehorse]

By some, sure. Others are more discerning in its use, as Kuzcotopia is. I don't use the term, largely because we already have a word to cover unequivocally painting members of a demographic group in a negative/hateful fashion: bigotry. And criticism is certainly not equivalent to bigotry.

I feel a new thread coming on, but...

The first definition of bigotry I find is:

intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

I suspect you had a different meaning in mind? I think that commonly bigotry is used to describe someone who is prejudiced against certain ethnicities or genders. There's a huge difference between disagreeing with ideas and judging skin color or gender, correct?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

So can my thread be unlocked now?

Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace



Very good article though. Provoking.

For some reason, so far I thought you were a Muslim...

 

[Rival]

For some reason, so far I thought you were a Muslim...

I am a Noahide.

 

[shunyadragon]

This is not how the word is used. It is currently used to label anyone that criticizes Islam.

This is a little too extreme. To be a phobia it must be very much stronger than 'criticize,' A phobia would be an unreasonable illogical fear of something.

 

[Pie'Oh'Pah]

Not when you include the whole history of the religions.

History isn't killing people "now".

 

[Rival]

This is a little too extreme. To be a phobia it must be very much stronger than 'criticize,' A phobia would be an unreasonable illogical fear of something.

Yes, but that is not how the word is used. Colloquially it is mostly used to label critics of Islam.

 

[England my lionheart]

An interesting article for a variety of reasons:

In Interview, Top Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren't Linked

Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. There is a clear relationship between fundamentalism, terrorism, and the basic assumptions of Islamic orthodoxy. So long as we lack consensus regarding this matter, we cannot gain victory over fundamentalist violence within Islam.

Radical Islamic movements are nothing new. They’ve appeared again and again throughout our own history in Indonesia. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me — an Islamic scholar — of being an Islamophobe too?

...Generations ago, we achieved a de facto consensus in Indonesia that Islamic teachings must be contextualized to reflect the ever-changing circumstances of time and place. The majority of Indonesian Muslims were — and I think still are — of the opinion that the various assumptions embedded within Islamic tradition must be viewed within the historical, political and social context of their emergence in the Middle Ages [in the Middle East] and not as absolute injunctions that must dictate Muslims’ behavior in the present

I share this desire [to combat extremism] — that’s a primary reason I’m speaking so frankly. But the approach you describe won’t work. If you refuse to acknowledge the existence of a problem, you can’t begin to solve it. One must identify the problem and explicitly state who and what are responsible for it.

...Over the past 50 years, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states have spent massively to promote their ultra-conservative version of Islam worldwide. After allowing this to go unchallenged for so many decades, the West must finally exert decisive pressure upon the Saudis to cease this behavior ...

And there's an extreme left wing whose adherents reflexively denounce any and all talk about the connections between traditional Islam, fundamentalism and violence as de facto proof of Islamophobia. This must end. A problem that is not acknowledged cannot be solved.



Some context, the organisation that this cleric represents alone has more members than there are people in the GCC Gulf States who fund the majority of extremism and have had a terrible influence all over the world. Many who seek to criticise Islam though seem to prefer siding with the Gulf Arabs as to who best represents Islam and usually phrase discussions in terms of their ideology.

Any meaningful discussion of Islam and its role around the world in the 21st C really needs to acknowledge there are multiple Islams, and treating them as being the same thing is an impediment to clear thought and understanding. Just like people reflexively crying 'Islamophobia' is.


Thoughts?

He's right of course but looking at the history of Islam back to 1928 and Hassan al banna creating the muslim brotherhood and his slogan "fight them until there is no fitna (discord),and until the religion,all of it is for allah"Quran,sura 8 verse 39.
(now before the onslaught of "it doesn't mean that!!",don't tell me,tell them.)

Since then and from Egypt they have spread world wide,the brotherhoods sayyid qutb wrote some influential books "milestones" and "in the shade of the Quran",Osama bin laden was once a member but their biggest claim to fame is Hamas in Palestine.

They have apparently been given funds in the past by Saudi Arabia.

The MB are now global,they have a website that's worth a look,if your into world politics and propaganda.

So not all Muslims agree with physical jihad but the wahabbi in Abu Dhabi do ;-).

 

[shunyadragon]

History isn't killing people "now".

At the moment "now" it is possible that no one is killing anyone.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but that is not how the word is used. Colloquially it is mostly used to label critics of Islam.

'Colloquially' is not meaningful in terms of extreme misuse of a word, and the constructive use of the word in dialogue. To use 'phobia' to simply describe those that criticize other world views is genuinely bizzaro,