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Muslim scholar: Islam + violence are linked

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
'Colloquially' is not meaningful in terms of extreme misuse of a word, and the constructive use of the word in dialogue. To use 'phobia' to simply describe those that criticize other world views is genuinely bizzaro,
I would agree. Those who actually suffer from something amounting to a psychological condition would be few and far between. Islamophobia is actually designed to be a conversation killer, by labeling said persons as being mentally unhinged for even considering such views. It's sort of like saying, "Hey, let's have a nice conversation about your, narrow-minded, bigoted and highly irrational viewpoint." Not exactly, a conversation starter.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yeah, me neither.

I believe most Christians consider Christianity a 'Religion of Peace.'

From: Review of Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't
Religion of Peace?
Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't

by Robert Spencer
Washington: Regnery Publishing Inc., 2007. 264 pp. $27.95.

Reviewed by Bat Ye'or

www.dhimmitude.org

Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2008



Spencer, director of JihadWatch.org, is not a man to recoil from difficulties. In his most recent, solid study, he examines the current state of controversies in the United States relating to Islam and Christianity. He exposes the ignorance and misunderstanding that riddle many discourses on religions.

Beginning in the 1960s, the search for common points led too many academics and intellectuals to efface the oppositions among Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in order to distinguish essential common points. But the differences are vast: The totalizing Islamic interpretation of revelation gathers together under a single power the spheres of politics, religion, and justice, something unacceptable to the two biblical religions. And while the Bible does not mention Muslims, who, of course, did not exist at the time of its redaction, the Qur'an mentions Jews and Christians in numerous verses, most often negatively. Other differences include the contents of the sacred texts and differing interpretations of the prophethood.

Spencer's work is crucial, given the stakes of today's worldwide jihadist war. For example, he demolishes false equivalence between jihad (a warrior ideology that is structural to Islam and has been deployed across thirteen centuries) and the Crusades (defensive wars spread over two centuries).

He instructs those many in the West who do not understand the possibility of an Islamist-provoked catastrophe putting an end to democracy's comfortable political and social order. More broadly, Westerners rarely perceive that their foreign policies conform to the exigencies of international jihadi strategies—for example, that European leaders are constrained under the threat of reprisals to accept immigration and to restrain their own freedom of expression to appease Muslim sensibilities. This policy of submission permits Islamist propaganda to dominate Western media and campuses.

If Westerners do not understand the ideological language used to justify the suppression of their liberties, if they ignore the historical, juridical, and theological structure of jihad and its corollary, dhimmitude (subjugation of religious minorities), then they will understand nothing about current events. They will become—like their predecessors of whose history they are ignorant—the slaves of their conquerors.

Written in a clear and easy style, and not without humor, Spencer's latest book Religion of Peace?supplies the keys to understanding the challenges that confront us. He provides the knowledge essential to enable Westerners to defend their democratic institutions as well as the fundamental values of freedom and human dignity.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I believe most Christians consider Christianity a 'Religion of Peace.'

From: Review of Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't
Religion of Peace?
Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't

by Robert Spencer
Washington: Regnery Publishing Inc., 2007. 264 pp. $27.95.

Reviewed by Bat Ye'or

www.dhimmitude.org

Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2008



Spencer, director of JihadWatch.org, is not a man to recoil from difficulties. In his most recent, solid study, he examines the current state of controversies in the United States relating to Islam and Christianity. He exposes the ignorance and misunderstanding that riddle many discourses on religions.

Beginning in the 1960s, the search for common points led too many academics and intellectuals to efface the oppositions among Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in order to distinguish essential common points. But the differences are vast: The totalizing Islamic interpretation of revelation gathers together under a single power the spheres of politics, religion, and justice, something unacceptable to the two biblical religions. And while the Bible does not mention Muslims, who, of course, did not exist at the time of its redaction, the Qur'an mentions Jews and Christians in numerous verses, most often negatively. Other differences include the contents of the sacred texts and differing interpretations of the prophethood.

Spencer's work is crucial, given the stakes of today's worldwide jihadist war. For example, he demolishes false equivalence between jihad (a warrior ideology that is structural to Islam and has been deployed across thirteen centuries) and the Crusades (defensive wars spread over two centuries).

He instructs those many in the West who do not understand the possibility of an Islamist-provoked catastrophe putting an end to democracy's comfortable political and social order. More broadly, Westerners rarely perceive that their foreign policies conform to the exigencies of international jihadi strategies—for example, that European leaders are constrained under the threat of reprisals to accept immigration and to restrain their own freedom of expression to appease Muslim sensibilities. This policy of submission permits Islamist propaganda to dominate Western media and campuses.

If Westerners do not understand the ideological language used to justify the suppression of their liberties, if they ignore the historical, juridical, and theological structure of jihad and its corollary, dhimmitude (subjugation of religious minorities), then they will understand nothing about current events. They will become—like their predecessors of whose history they are ignorant—the slaves of their conquerors.

Written in a clear and easy style, and not without humor, Spencer's latest book Religion of Peace?supplies the keys to understanding the challenges that confront us. He provides the knowledge essential to enable Westerners to defend their democratic institutions as well as the fundamental values of freedom and human dignity.
Did you just post a piece written by Bat Ye'or writing favorably about a book by Robert Spencer as being representative of Christians in general? I had no idea that Spencer had become so incredibly influential.

*blinks at screen repeatedly*
*starts laughing...*
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Did you just post a piece written by Bat Ye'or writing favorably about a book by Robert Spencer as being representative of Christians in general? I had no idea that Spencer had become so incredibly influential.

*blinks at screen repeatedly*
*starts laughing...*

I believe most Christians consider Christianity a Religion of Peace.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I can't say I've actually heard Christians say that too strenuously without a devilish little grin.

Not a meaningful response unless you can cite Christians saying it not too strenuously without a devilish little grin.

Jesus Christ is considered the Prince of Peace by most Christians.

Claimed fulfillment of prophecy (NIV)
Isaiah 9:6 -New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Also a popular Christmas song . . .

You are holy
You are mighty
You are worthy
Worthy of praise
I will follow
I will listen
I will love you
All of my days
I will sing to
And worship
The Kingdom is worthy
I will love and adore Him
And I will bow down before Him
And I will sing to and worship the Kingdom is worthy
And I will love and adore
And I will bow down before Him
You're my prince of peace
And I will live my life for You
You are holy
You are mighty
You are worthy
Worthy of praise
I will follow
I will listen
I will love you
All of my days
I will sing to
And worship
The Kingdom is worthy
I will love and adore Him
And I will bow down before Him
And I will sing to and worship the Kingdom is worthy
And I will love and adore
And I will bow down before Him
You're my…
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
An interesting article for a variety of reasons:

In Interview, Top Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren't Linked

Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. There is a clear relationship between fundamentalism, terrorism, and the basic assumptions of Islamic orthodoxy. So long as we lack consensus regarding this matter, we cannot gain victory over fundamentalist violence within Islam.

Radical Islamic movements are nothing new. They’ve appeared again and again throughout our own history in Indonesia. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me — an Islamic scholar — of being an Islamophobe too?

...Generations ago, we achieved a de facto consensus in Indonesia that Islamic teachings must be contextualized to reflect the ever-changing circumstances of time and place. The majority of Indonesian Muslims were — and I think still are — of the opinion that the various assumptions embedded within Islamic tradition must be viewed within the historical, political and social context of their emergence in the Middle Ages [in the Middle East] and not as absolute injunctions that must dictate Muslims’ behavior in the present

I share this desire [to combat extremism] — that’s a primary reason I’m speaking so frankly. But the approach you describe won’t work. If you refuse to acknowledge the existence of a problem, you can’t begin to solve it. One must identify the problem and explicitly state who and what are responsible for it.

...Over the past 50 years, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states have spent massively to promote their ultra-conservative version of Islam worldwide. After allowing this to go unchallenged for so many decades, the West must finally exert decisive pressure upon the Saudis to cease this behavior ...

And there's an extreme left wing whose adherents reflexively denounce any and all talk about the connections between traditional Islam, fundamentalism and violence as de facto proof of Islamophobia. This must end. A problem that is not acknowledged cannot be solved.



Some context, the organisation that this cleric represents alone has more members than there are people in the GCC Gulf States who fund the majority of extremism and have had a terrible influence all over the world. Many who seek to criticise Islam though seem to prefer siding with the Gulf Arabs as to who best represents Islam and usually phrase discussions in terms of their ideology.

Any meaningful discussion of Islam and its role around the world in the 21st C really needs to acknowledge there are multiple Islams, and treating them as being the same thing is an impediment to clear thought and understanding. Just like people reflexively crying 'Islamophobia' is.


Thoughts?

What about North Korea and the massive production of ballistic missiles ?
Does Islam threaten the world more than North Korea? why not to stop and fight North Korea now
than fighting Islam?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Not a meaningful response unless you can cite Christians saying it not too strenuously without a devilish little grin.

Jesus Christ is considered the Prince of Peace by most Christians.

Claimed fulfillment of prophecy (NIV)
Isaiah 9:6 -New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Also a popular Christmas song . . .

You are holy
You are mighty
You are worthy
Worthy of praise
I will follow
I will listen
I will love you
All of my days
I will sing to
And worship
The Kingdom is worthy
I will love and adore Him
And I will bow down before Him
And I will sing to and worship the Kingdom is worthy
And I will love and adore
And I will bow down before Him
You're my prince of peace
And I will live my life for You
You are holy
You are mighty
You are worthy
Worthy of praise
I will follow
I will listen
I will love you
All of my days
I will sing to
And worship
The Kingdom is worthy
I will love and adore Him
And I will bow down before Him
And I will sing to and worship the Kingdom is worthy
And I will love and adore
And I will bow down before Him
You're my…
27842-beating_dead_horse_what.jpg
 
What about North Korea and the massive production of ballistic missiles ?
Does Islam threaten the world more than North Korea? why not to stop and fight North Korea now
than fighting Islam?

What an odd reply.

1) Do you consider the cleric, a leader of what is probably the world's largest Islamic organisation, to be engaging in 'fighting Islam'? If so, why? If not, what is your point?
2) Is anyone who doesn't discuss North Korea 24/7 committing some kind of offence? Perhaps the forum name could be changed to North Korea Forums to keep you happy.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I believe most Christians consider Christianity a 'Religion of Peace.'

From: Review of Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't
Religion of Peace?
Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't

by Robert Spencer
Washington: Regnery Publishing Inc., 2007. 264 pp. $27.95.

Reviewed by Bat Ye'or

www.dhimmitude.org

Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2008



Spencer, director of JihadWatch.org, is not a man to recoil from difficulties. In his most recent, solid study, he examines the current state of controversies in the United States relating to Islam and Christianity. He exposes the ignorance and misunderstanding that riddle many discourses on religions.

Beginning in the 1960s, the search for common points led too many academics and intellectuals to efface the oppositions among Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in order to distinguish essential common points. But the differences are vast: The totalizing Islamic interpretation of revelation gathers together under a single power the spheres of politics, religion, and justice, something unacceptable to the two biblical religions. And while the Bible does not mention Muslims, who, of course, did not exist at the time of its redaction, the Qur'an mentions Jews and Christians in numerous verses, most often negatively. Other differences include the contents of the sacred texts and differing interpretations of the prophethood.

Spencer's work is crucial, given the stakes of today's worldwide jihadist war. For example, he demolishes false equivalence between jihad (a warrior ideology that is structural to Islam and has been deployed across thirteen centuries) and the Crusades (defensive wars spread over two centuries).

He instructs those many in the West who do not understand the possibility of an Islamist-provoked catastrophe putting an end to democracy's comfortable political and social order. More broadly, Westerners rarely perceive that their foreign policies conform to the exigencies of international jihadi strategies—for example, that European leaders are constrained under the threat of reprisals to accept immigration and to restrain their own freedom of expression to appease Muslim sensibilities. This policy of submission permits Islamist propaganda to dominate Western media and campuses.

If Westerners do not understand the ideological language used to justify the suppression of their liberties, if they ignore the historical, juridical, and theological structure of jihad and its corollary, dhimmitude (subjugation of religious minorities), then they will understand nothing about current events. They will become—like their predecessors of whose history they are ignorant—the slaves of their conquerors.

Written in a clear and easy style, and not without humor, Spencer's latest book Religion of Peace?supplies the keys to understanding the challenges that confront us. He provides the knowledge essential to enable Westerners to defend their democratic institutions as well as the fundamental values of freedom and human dignity.

Okay, fair enough. This is new to me but I'll bear it in mind for the future.

That said, Islam is called a 'Religion of Peace' far far more often.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
There is absolutely nothing relevant about North Korea to the OP.
It's a Muslim criticizing Islamic culture.
Tom

My point is that there's no relation between wars and Islam, the cleric is stupid and Kim Jong-un is smart.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Okay, fair enough. This is new to me but I'll bear it in mind for the future.

That said, Islam is called a 'Religion of Peace' far far more often.

The dead horse beating continues. The belief that Jesus Christ is the 'Prince pf Peace' recited in prophecy and song constantly on holidays and in the churches of Christianity far more than in Islam pretty much puts them at minimum on equal footing. In one way or another most religions consider their belief system a 'Religion of Peace,' whether it is ultimately bringing peace to the world, inner peace, and peace in the family and community.

By the way most belief systems that wage war, and commit violence against others believe that they are bringing into the world a 'Religion of Peace.' Yes, this is a bizzaro sick contradiction, but none the less in all religions this is the rational for waging war and violence: To cleanse the world of pagans, heathens, and heretics, and bring about a world of peace.
 
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The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
What about North Korea and the massive production of ballistic missiles ?
Does Islam threaten the world more than North Korea? why not to stop and fight North Korea now
than fighting Islam?

What about actually engaging with the OP instead of resorting to the usual deflection?

And do you think you know Islam better than a cleric?
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
What about actually engaging with the OP instead of resorting to the usual deflection?

And do you think you know Islam better than a cleric?

I'm not stupid as the others to show you how many clerics disagree with him, I believe trusting the words of a cleric because he's a cleric is the best proof of stupidity, but it's up to you or I can't change how you want to think.
 
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