Muslims: 72 Virgins in Paradise?

[gnostic]

I don't know what would you say if you heard abt the other rewards in the Paradise!

*shrug* I don't believe in reward in Paradise or punishment in Hell. It is ancient notion, first believed by the Egyptians and the Sumerians. When the Jews were exiled to Babylon, they came into contact with Babylonian and Persian religious concepts of afterlife. Therefore, Christian and Muslim belief in afterlife, come from pagan customs.

The Jews didn't have any heaven-hell or reward-punishment. All judgement made by God, and the reward and punishment were done on earth, among the living, not in the afterlife. When you die, you're dead. There were no judgement, no redemption, no reward, but also no punishment.

As to the descendants of Ishmael, they were all idol-worshippers before Muhammad's time, so therefore Muhammad would have come across pagan customs, as well as that of Jewish and Christian belief.

Read the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) or Old Testament properly, and you would find no notion of the afterlife, and only two person made it to heaven, Enoch and Elijah...that if you are to believe in such things.

That's why I sometimes, scoff at Christian and Muslim belief of afterlife, because they are essentially following pagan belief. Like or not, the afterlife have being around far longer than that of the birth of Christianity and Islam.

 

[maro]

And what will be the harm if countless muslims believed in this hadeeth, huh? will make them blowing themselves up? oh, then all the verses n ahadeeth abt Paradise are serious danger which will make muslims blowing themselves or killing others?!
Plus who told you that its kept among the genuine hadeeths?? when the hadeeth is weak, it's said to be weak one. in addition, every one can search and know the authenticity of any hadeeth...but when it's weak or ghareeb, there is a probability that it may be a true one.
I don't know what would you say if you heard abt the other rewards in the Paradise!
Subhan Allah!

i would like to add that most muslims , if not all of them are quite aware of this sanad issue (sanad=the degree of the authenticity of the hadith) ,
and that whenever a hadith is mentioned ,its (sanad)is usually mentioned following it,
and that the hadiths with weakness in their sanad , are generally not famous among muslims ,
and that's why most of us here , haven't heard of this hadith before ,

another thing , is that the word in the arabic hadith quoted by (the truth) ,is 72 wives ,not virgins

and for me personally, i have no problem to accept this hadith if it was authentic
i don't see the believer having 72 wives in paradise, like a fanatasy
god rewards whoever he likes , the way he likes

may we all meet in Al ferdaws al A'la , ameen

 

[maro]

. Like or not, the afterlife have being around far longer than that of the birth of Christianity and Islam.

I am sure it is ,
because all prophets since Adam (Pbuh)till Muhammed (Pbuh) , have told their people about it

 

[Sahar]

It is ancient notion, first believed by the Egyptians and the Sumerians.

Being an ancient notion does not contradict being from God. The first human on earth; Adam believed in Heaven and Hell. Then people began to worship partners with God then God sent a new prophet or messenger and so on. Plus who told you that those Egyptians or whoever were not following a messenger from God at the beginning, then they distorted this message but some of the truth might remain. We, muslims, believe that God sent a messenger to every nation, so no wonder!

For example, the pagans at Mecca before and at the prophet's time (PBUH) believed in God, if you asked them who created the earth? they would answer and say "Allah", so part of the truth may remain but note something:

so therefore Muhammad would have come across pagan customs

Those pagans didn't believe in the Heaven and Hell, so you can't say That Muhammad (PBUH) came across the pagan customs. on the contrary; The Quraan's concern was to tell them about worshiping one God without partners and to tell them abt the Hereafter.

In addition, i think that believing in the "afterlife" or Hereafter is very logical and rational and even does not need a messenger from God to tell us about. By our pure minds, we can figure out this.

 

[gnostic]

Yes, of course they believed in heaven. The believed God and his angels lived in heaven, but not that their souls would someday dwell there.

That's the difference between Jews and non-Jews (Christians and Muslims).

As I said only two people reach heaven without tasting death.

Plus who told you that those Egyptians or whoever were not following a messenger from God at the beginning, then they distorted this message but some of the truth might remain.

Sorry, Not4Me, but that's mere speculation.

There are real evidences that the Egyptians believed in afterlife, long before the times of Abraham and Moses. But there not a single shred of evidence of Adam to Moses (including Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob).

We, muslims, believe that God sent a messenger to every nation, so no wonder!

That's also mere speculation, N4M.

 

[Judgement Day]

I am great opposer of any erradication of books, whether we agree with them or not.

When I replied previously of removing the non-authentic hadiths, I was speaking of burning them or anything like that, which The Truth had rebuked me for. No, my solution would have being to called these unauthentic hadith in a collection as "collection of unauthentic hadiths", or "extra-hadith" or something like that, but in Arabic. So you would have two different hadiths, authentic ones and unauthentic ones, so people can distinguish between the two. It is better to separate them out than destroy outright.

That's why I think it is right in the Judaeo-Christian Bible, there are collections of books known as Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. You (as Muslims in general) should do something like this, with the hadiths.

As I have said, I don't believe we should ever destroy knowledge, such as books, whether we agree with them or not.

For example, I truly hated Moby Dick, 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 with passion, when I was in high school (because they were so damn boring and didn't think they deserved to be labeled as "classic"), but I would lead the charge of burning these books. This is a matter of taste, I would guess. You have heard of the saying: "One man's garbage, is another man's treasure" (or something along that line). If I don't like them, then I just wouldn't read them again. Similarly, I don't always agree with the Bible and Qur'an, but that doesn't mean I would want to destroy them.

I was not expressing the notion of destroying all the lesser hadith, because even though they are less authentic does not neccesarily mean that they violate the Quran, it just means that it might have not been what the Prophet really said. On the other case, if a hadith were in violation of the Quran, this must be destroyed immediately because this is 100% false, and the Prophet would never say any such thing that conflicts with the Quran.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

The reason why the thread continues on my friend is because we have conflicting answers from Muslims on this issue. Mujahid Mohammed and Not4Me believe there will be 72 virgins waiting for men.

that is not what i said,I said this is a certain reward for certain people and not all will have this. Men will have at least two wives in Jannah some more some less.

Even if that particular hadith is weak...Personally, I think it was written to try to keep women in line and for that purpose only. But, that's just my opinion.

How does a reward promised to men keep women in line exactly? Wouldn't it really be to keep men in line.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I'm the one who find this concept of reward as being adolescent fantasy of Muslim hadith author, and those lunatics today who believe in such rewards.

Think what you want to think but when you see it. When Allah brings you forth on the Day of judgment to testify were you a believer in Allah and His Messenger then you will know. When you die and the two angels Munkar and Nakir come to question you then you will know.

So you are entitled to your opinion about what is being relayed in the hadith so enjoy yourself for the time Allah has given you but either willingly or unwillingly you will submit to Allah's decree.

especially since I don't believe in heaven or afterlife.

So what is the purpose of creation then. Why are we here?

And the notion of sex in heaven would seem like ridiculous fairytale to me.

Why? People do it here in this life and since people will be together in the next life and if you are one of those who choose to the path of the believers and are given the mercy and blessing of Paradise then how can there not be any when Paradise is constant enjoyment.
And who does not enjoy sex especially with mates the Creator has especially created for you both man and women?

Imagine you having a spouse you cannot take your eyes off of for you are just consumed by their beauty whether man or woman? come on now people have a hard enough time controlling themselves around beautiful women in this life, and everything in hereafter is infinitely better.

Unfortunately for those who disbelieve it is constant and ever increasing punishment.

 

[vandervalley]

Why? People do it here in this life and since people will be together in the next life and if you are one of those who choose to the path of the believers and are given the mercy and blessing of Paradise then how can there not be any when Paradise is constant enjoyment.
And who does not enjoy sex especially with mates the Creator has especially created for you both man and women?

Well; people also eat, poo and pee in this life. So i assume u also believe there are toilets and sewage plants in even

 

[vandervalley]

in even

* in heaven

 

[gnostic]

So what is the purpose of creation then. Why are we here?

What make you think there is a purpose?

"Purpose of life" is a human concept. And if there are no gods, then there are no purpose, except for each person. If there was a creation, I don't see how any purpose we put in human understanding will make any bit of difference. We can't change the past, so it is pointless to dwell on the Creation, which may or may not have happened in the way Jews/Christians/Muslims had envisioned it in their scriptures. If you and others want to believe that the Earth is no older than 6000 years, and that it was created in 7 days by his divineship, then who am I to argue your faith on fairytale.

To me, people can only do what they are destined to do (but even then we don't have no control over our lives), how they live their lives, what flavour ice cream they will eat this Sunday, etc. That's the only meaning each person can have. And each person's purpose is different. If you want to read the Qur'an and pray 5 times a day while on your knees, :bow: then that's your purpose. You have no control or understanding of the Creation and it is pointless to waste your time on it, but if you want to discover its secret meaning, but its your time, then by all mean - go break a leg.

 

[gnostic]

Why? People do it here in this life and since people will be together in the next life and if you are one of those who choose to the path of the believers and are given the mercy and blessing of Paradise then how can there not be any when Paradise is constant enjoyment.

Constant enjoyment?

Define enjoyment, MM.

I would find that boring after a couple of days. I like being challenged and I like learning something new. My idea of fun is not sitting down on my butts, listening to some angels singing "Holy, Holy, Holy", nonstop, 24/7, until we become brain-dead. :thud: :sleep: Or being preached about the goodness of being "good". That's not my idea of fun.

You idea of enjoyment would not be my type of enjoyment.

Would God provide me something that I would like to do, instead of what he want us to do? If it was the latter, then to me, that's like being slave. Will I still have my free will? It doesn't look like it, if reaping the rewards is anything like the way Muslims and Christians envision heaven to be like, then I would prefer if there were no heaven and hell, no punishment and reward; so when I die, my conscious would cease to exist, not to life of forever torment in hell and heaven.

 

[gnostic]

To JUDGEMENT DAY

I am disgusted by the way people think when they hear the word "virgin". The only thing they can think of when they hear this word is sex. Virgin is the word used when someone or something is being in a chaste condition, pure, undefiled, unexploited, etc. That does not mean just because they are virgins, you have the right to take away their virginity, nor does this means endless sexual intercourse in the heaven. I think that is just plain sick just to think of it. Who knows if we will still have our sexual organs anymore in heaven.

Why? People do it here in this life and since people will be together in the next life and if you are one of those who choose to the path of the believers and are given the mercy and blessing of Paradise then how can there not be any when Paradise is constant enjoyment.
And who does not enjoy sex especially with mates the Creator has especially created for you both man and women?

Imagine you having a spouse you cannot take your eyes off of for you are just consumed by their beauty whether man or woman? come on now people have a hard enough time controlling themselves around beautiful women in this life, and everything in hereafter is infinitely better.

As you can see, it is your fellow Muslim, who can't think beyond sex, when they come across the word "virgin".

Mujahid Mohammed is your average Muslim...a nice and intelligent bloke...and yet he readily believe in this nonsense about 72 virgins. So if no Muslims want to deal with the issues of separating the unauthentic hadiths - a concept that may be wrong and definitely misleading, then whose fault is it? Is it the people's fault? Or that of Islamic teachings?

The concept of 72 virgins, not only sounds like adolescent fantasy, but the concept that women are sex objects, even in heaven. That Allah would supply the faithfuls with 72 virgins, also make him sounds like a pimp.

There seemed to bargain between your God and Muslims, like: "You bow down to me and sign your soul to me for eternity as my slaves, I would provide you with a number of hookers for you to bed."

Is that what it sound to you?

 

[maro]

To JUDGEMENT DAY


As you can see, it is your fellow Muslim, who can't think beyond sex, when they come across the word "virgin".

Mujahid Mohammed is your average Muslim...a nice and intelligent bloke...and yet he readily believe in this nonsense about 72 virgins. So if no Muslims want to deal with the issues of separating the unauthentic hadiths - a concept that may be wrong and definitely misleading, then whose fault is it? Is it the people's fault? Or that of Islamic teachings?

haven't you read post 126 ,
or it is just a pleasure for some people to repeat the questions that were answered

The concept of 72 virgins, not only sounds like adolescent fantasy, but the concept that women are sex objects, even in heaven. That Allah would supply the faithfuls with 72 virgins, also make him sounds like a pimp.

the hadith says 72 wives ,
and if it says 72 virgins , and was an authentic one , we are going to accept it as well
and how it sounds to you doesn't really concern us
islam would never support that concept (you mentioned)about women ,
the muslim woman is much more honured that that ,with her islamic hijab , that keeps her dignity and honour ,that doen't let any one deal with her exept with respect

 

[gnostic]

72 virgins. 72 women. 72 wives.

What bl@#dy difference does that make, Maro?

It is still a stupid fantasy, Maro, no matter what you called these fantasy girls, wives or not? It still sounds like he is a pimp, supplying women for marriages, all so supposely happy to be married.

I don't believe in arranged marriage anyway. It sounds nothing more like here, where old fashion Muslim family sending young virgin daughters to another country, to marry her off to an old man, which in our country considered it to be trading their daughters like prostitute to a pedophile.

I see no difference in what some of these families doing this here, today, from what your God is doing, sending virgins, supposedly happy to be wives of whoever it is, with no will to refuse. It still sounds like a damn pimp and prostitutes.

It still sound like a fantasy. And it is wrong, no matter how you see it.

Only perverts would believe in such nonsense. Wives or not?

:sorry1: but Mr Grumpy doesn't do so well his sugar pills.

 

[Sahar]

it is just a pleasure for some people to repeat the questions that were answered

:yes:
Especially when you repeat many times that this hadith is weak and most of muslims don't pay their attention to it, they are still saying why muslims don't separate the unauthentic hadiths!!

The concept of 72 virgins, not only sounds like adolescent fantasy, but the concept that women are sex objects, even in heaven.

So what adolescent fantasy??! i can imagine myself, if i went to heaven, jumping in a lake of chocolate, or riding a flying white horse so what?! childish fantasy??!! then no problem if every thing is possible in Paradise....all kinds of fantasy will be real ranging from child fantasy to adult fantasy...no problem!
And from when are women considered as sex objects in Islam to make you say "even in heaven"??!

 

[gnostic]

And from when are women considered as sex objects in Islam to make you say "even in heaven"??!

From the 72 women, girls, wives, virgins....whatever. Do you seriously think that men don't think about sex when they think of virgins? Do you think those suicide bombers and terrorists kill themselves, so that they can have platonic relationship with their future brides?

The whole business of religion and afterlife is fantasy, and the hadith take it one step further to the absurd.

i can imagine myself, if i went to heaven, jumping in a lake of chocolate, or riding a flying white hourse so what?!

There! You see? Not but absurd belief. But that's far more innocent than rutting some 72 virgins.

Flying horse? :sorry1: I don't like height.

Lake of chocolate? :sorry1: No, thanks. I can't swim.

But I will try to make milkshake out of the chocolate.

 

[Sahar]

From the 72 women, girls, wives, virgins

I guess you find nothing except the 72 women which MUSLIMS DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO, THE AHADEETH TALKING ABOUT THIS ARE WEAK, no-one cares for the "72 women" as much as you do!
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! sorry, iam tired, you just keep repeating the same thing...this is my last post on this topic!

There! You see? Not but absurd belief. But that's far more innocent than rutting some 72 virgins.

Ah, okay ..thanks! my imagination is absurd!:sad4:

 

[maro]

Only perverts would believe in such nonsense. Wives or not?
.

well ,we believe that the believer will have wives in Paradise (Al Hoor Al 'een)
so why don't you just consider us as perverts , and let's end this aimless discussion
because we are not going to change our religion , for your sake

 

[gnostic]

So if you're wife go to Paradise with you, you are free to dump her, for 72 beautiful women, because she is too old and ugly for you. That's what I called being faithful.