Muslims and Christians Only: Was Jesus Crucified Or Not?

[sojourner]

Feel free to enjoy your self-delusion while it lasts ... ;-)

Really?

Srrsly?!

That's the best you've got? "Feel free to enjoy your self-delusion?"


Why, that's tantamount to "So's your old man," "Sez you," and "I know you are, but what am I?"


I'm... humbled by your prowess with meaningless comebacks-disguised-as-witty-sarcasm in a failed attempt to seem superior.

Do you have something that actually refutes my point, or are you just wasting bandwidth?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Jesus wasn't God.

I am a Trinitarian, so I disagree with you.

That being said, the crucifixion had nothing to do with sin.

"If a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live." - Ezek 18:21-22
​

Even according to the Old Testament, if you turn away from your sins and does the right thing, God will not hold the sins against you. The verse is so clear that I cannot understand where people get the idea that God wants someone to pay for all our sins.

And once you've got all this "payment for sins" stuff out of the way, there is no good reason why God couldn't have made it look like they crucified Jesus when they crucified someone else, like the Muslims believe, except that such an approach seems very deceitful and I cannot imagine God playing tricks on people like that. If he really wanted to save Jesus from the death on the cross, he would have made it very clear, not deceiving the ones who wanted to kill Jesus to let them believe they did. Why would God let the unjust believe they won?

And just to clear it out the way, there is no way Jesus would ever have been let off the hook by the Romans. We know from historical evidence that it was Pilate who was in charge at the time and that he was a ruthless person (the Biblical image of him is just so wrong). There is no way he'd let the leader of a rebellious movement like Christianity live.

Your disagreement is with the Protestant view of Atonement. Catholics have a different view on it, which focuses on love:

The Catholic conception of Christ’s Passion and Atonement is that Christ offered Himself up in self-sacrificial love to the Father, obedient even unto death, for the sins of all men. In His human will He offered to God a sacrifice of love that was more pleasing to the Father than the combined sins of all men of all time are displeasing to Him, and thus made satisfaction for our sins. The Father was never angry with Christ. Nor did the Father pour out His wrath on the Son. The Passion is Christ’s greatest act of love, the greatest revelation of the heart of God, and the glory of Christ.1 So when Christ was on the cross, God the Father was not pouring out His wrath on His Son; in Christ’s act of self-sacrifice in loving obedience to the Father, Christ was most lovable in the eyes of the Father. Rather, in Christ’s Passion we humans poured out our enmity with God on Christ, by what we did to Him in His body and soul. And He freely chose to let us do all this to Him. Deeper still, even our present sins contributed to His suffering, because He, in solidarity with us, grieved over all the sins of the world, not just the sins of the elect. Hence, St. Francis of Assisi said, “Nor did demons crucify Him; it is you who have crucified Him and crucify Him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.”2 The Passion is a revelation of the love of God, not the wrath of God.
Catholic and Reformed Conceptions of the Atonement | Called to Communion

The Orthodox have a different view of it, as well: Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[loverOfTruth]

Really?

Srrsly?!

That's the best you've got? "Feel free to enjoy your self-delusion?"


Why, that's tantamount to "So's your old man," "Sez you," and "I know you are, but what am I?"


I'm... humbled by your prowess with meaningless comebacks-disguised-as-witty-sarcasm in a failed attempt to seem superior.

Do you have something that actually refutes my point, or are you just wasting bandwidth?

Says the one who said "God! It's like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a medieval sheep-shearer. " without actually refuting all the scriptural quotes I have provided and making irrelevant comments without understanding my response to other posters. Well done :clap

 

[sojourner]

Says the one who said "God! It's like trying to explain quantum mechanics to a medieval sheep-shearer. " without actually refuting all the scriptural quotes I have provided and making irrelevant comments without understanding my response to other posters. Well done :clap

Please see posts #137 and 139. The comments were not irrelevant, and your "exegesis" was refuted.

"I know you are, but what am I" just doesn't work in a textual debate. Nor does the assertion that Jesus was "praying for deliverance" when he was obviously quoting scripture -- word-for-word, BTW.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I believe in God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I confess with the Church of Christ at all places and times.

He who denies Jesus came from the death in the flesh is antichrist; he who denies Jesus will come again in the flesh in which He Resurrected is antichrist.

I believe Jesus is LORD AND GOD in the flesh, LORD AND GOD "exalted far above every name that is named" and "has made of his enemies his footstool.

I worship Jesus Christ so help me GOD!

 

[paarsurrey]

Hello everyone. I want to have a debate between Muslims and Christians only. I do not want anyone else to participate in the debate.

So, the question is this: Was Jesus crucified or not? As for me, I strongly believe that He was indeed crucified but the Quran states that He was not crucified. Here is the evidence for believing that He was indeed crucified:

In addition to the Gospel narratives of the crucifixion of Jesus we also have the testimony of Josephus, a Jewish historian; Tacitus, a Roman historian; and a possible reference to His crucifixion in the Babylonian Talmud. There is also a letter from a person named Mara Bar-Serapion which mentions the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. You can see more about these evidences at Wikipedia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus

So, Muslims, why do you believe that Jesus was not crucified? Please provide rebuttals.

Was Jesus crucified or not? As for me, I strongly believe that He was indeed crucified but the Quran states that He was not crucified. Here is the evidence for believing that He was indeed crucified

Since Jesus was put on the Cross with the object to make him die a cursed death on the Cross but Jesus was delivered from it only in the near-dead position yet very much alive hence Quran rightly says and reveals an absolute truth and I quote from Quran:

[4:157] And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,
[4:158] And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

So Quran mentions that the Jews wanted to kill him on the cross; but they could not accomplish the process of killing Jesus anyway; they could make Jesus appear to them like one crucified; yet Jesus was delivered from the cross very much alive.

It is just their conjecture of both Jews and Christians that Jesus died on the Cross. The action remained incomplete and inconclusive.

Regards

 

[allright]

Since Jesus was put on the Cross with the object to make him die a cursed death on the Cross but Jesus was delivered from it only in the near-dead position yet very much alive hence Quran rightly says and reveals an absolute truth and I quote from Quran:

[4:157] And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,
[4:158] And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

So Quran mentions that the Jews wanted to kill him on the cross; but they could not accomplish the process of killing Jesus anyway; they could make Jesus appear to them like one crucified; yet Jesus was delivered from the cross very much alive.

It is just their conjecture of both Jews and Christians that Jesus died on the Cross. The action remained incomplete and inconclusive.

Regards

Jesus said over and over again he was going to put to death.

So by saying he really didn't die your saying hes a liar and a false Prophet

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus said over and over again he was going to put to death.

So by saying he really didn't die your saying hes a liar and a false Prophet

You are pretty wrong here.

Jesus prayed to G-d in the Garden with tears to be saved from a cursed death on the Cross; and for his righteousness G-d saved him.

Jesus was a truthful person; Paul is the liar who faked the things.

Regards

 

[allright]

You are pretty wrong here.

Jesus prayed to G-d in the Garden with tears to be saved from a cursed death on the Cross; and for his righteousness G-d saved him.

Jesus was a truthful person; Paul is the liar who faked the things.

Regards

how can you really believe this stuff its incredible

 

[John Martin]

Hello everyone. I want to have a debate between Muslims and Christians only. I do not want anyone else to participate in the debate.

So, the question is this: Was Jesus crucified or not? As for me, I strongly believe that He was indeed crucified but the Quran states that He was not crucified. Here is the evidence for believing that He was indeed crucified:

In addition to the Gospel narratives of the crucifixion of Jesus we also have the testimony of Josephus, a Jewish historian; Tacitus, a Roman historian; and a possible reference to His crucifixion in the Babylonian Talmud. There is also a letter from a person named Mara Bar-Serapion which mentions the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. You can see more about these evidences at Wikipedia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus

So, Muslims, why do you believe that Jesus was not crucified? Please provide rebuttals.

I do not want to waste time on discussing whether Jesus was crucified or not. It is something related to an event 2014 years ago. People can have different opinions. What I am interested is the symbol of crucifixion:
Crucifixion of Jesus is the symbol of crucifixion of Truth. There are two aspects of Truth: one is eternal and other is historical. Eternal truth is like the infinite space. Historical truth is like the space within the four walls.
Jesus Christ represents eternal truth that has no boundary. It breaks down all the walls and creates one God, one creation and one humanity.
The crucifixion of Jesus was the consequence of the refusal of the Jewish spiritual authorities to grow into higher divine-human relationships. They decided to remain in their historical and collective truth.
On the part of Jesus the crucifixion was the consequence of his refusal to deny his spiritual realization for the spiritual growth of every single individual. The truth of Jesus is one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent love of neighbour. His truth does not exclude any individual or any religion.
There are two ways we can crucify the truth:
1. By refusing to grow in divine-human relationship.We need to grow in our relationship with God until we realize we are one with God. Jesus Christ said, the Father and I are one.
2. By placing the unconditioned truth into conditioned truth. It is to consider that the space within the four walls is the infinite truth. It is to put the boundaries to the Truth that has no boundaries.
If this is so then Christians cannot escape the blame that they have crucified the truth, since they have created so many belief systems-divisions in the name of Christ, who broke down all the walls of division and created one God, one creation and one humanity.

 

[TashaN]

In my opinion, the Quran is just flat out wrong when it says Jesus was not crucified. This is backed up by the non-Christian people such as Josephus who said He was indeed crucified. This is also backed up by the fact that the majority of scholars, including non-Christian ones, agree that He was crucified.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. (Quran 4:157)

You see, the issue which made people think he was crucified is the fact that it appeared that way to them, but it was not the truth. People know what they can see only but God alone knows the truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

how can you really believe this stuff its incredible

This is what Jesus did exactly:

Matthew 26:36-46
Jesus Prays in Gethsemane
36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter andthe two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch[a] with me.”39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, “Sleep and take your rest later on. See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.”

English Standard Version (ESV)

Jesus wanted to be saved from a cursed death on the Cross; G-d heard his prayer as he was a righteous human being (never a god of the trinity invented by Paul and the Church).

Regards

 

[allright]

This is what Jesus did exactly:

Matthew 26:36-46
Jesus Prays in Gethsemane
36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter andthe two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch[a] with me.”39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, “Sleep and take your rest later on. See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.”

English Standard Version (ESV)

Jesus wanted to be saved from a cursed death on the Cross; G-d heard his prayer as he was a righteous human being (never a god of the trinity invented by Paul and the Church).

Regards

Right this part is absolute truth, but the next parts that describes his death are false.
Really? What nonsense.

 

[paarsurrey]

Right this part is absolute truth, but the next parts that describes his death are false.
Really? What nonsense.

And your arguments? Please

Regards

 

[Estro Felino]

And your arguments? Please

Regards

Well...what if he had been crucified?
Crucifixions were very frequent at that time
So frequent that it would have been weird if he hadn't been crucified.

 

[paarsurrey]

Right this part is absolute truth, but the next parts that describes his death are false.
Really? What nonsense.

but the next parts that describes his death are false.

You mean he did not die as a result of being crucified; event lead to resulting to death and he was saved?

If that is what you mean; then I agree with you.

Did I understand to your correctly.

Regards

 

[allright]

but the next parts that describes his death are false.

You mean he did not die as a result of being crucified; event lead to resulting to death and he was saved?

If that is what you mean; then I agree with you.

Did I understand to your correctly.

Regards

No, The parts of the Bible you like you claim are true and the parts that go against your beliefs you claim are false with no proof what so ever

 

[ScuzManiac]

No, The parts of the Bible you like you claim are true and the parts that go against your beliefs you claim are false with no proof what so ever

But no one on the planet has proof that he was/wasn't crucified...

Or that he even actually existed in the first place.