Muslims: Did Mohammed teach something that was worthy of supplanting the teachings of Jesus?

[-Peacemaker-]

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." Matthew 5:9

"Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy." Matthew 5:7

"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5

"In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12


Matthew:

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40“If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41“Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42“Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.




To those who would attempt to use the Mattew 10:34: "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" to claim Jesus was speaking about a physical sword instead of a metaphorical one I present you with the only account of Jesus in a physical altercation involving a sword.


Matthew:
47While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48Now he who was betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the one; seize Him.” 49Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. 50And Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.
51And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54“How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”



I'd argue this is the most peace loving man the world has ever known. What possible reason is good enough for us to ignore such teachings? If Muslims truly have respect of Jesus and believe he's a great prophet, why aren't these teachings found in mosques all over the world? Do you really believe such teachings are the result of corruption?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

For starters, it must be noted that in Islam, Jesus is believed to be a great prophet, one mentioned dozens of times in the Quran.

One of the beliefs is that the true teachings of Jesus are not what we are taught now as being his teachings, but rather that they have become corrupted over the years (indeed, it is believed that in the end times Jesus will come back and teach again, his true teachings not the ones that are now taught in his name). However that does not mean that everything in the bible is corrupted, only that at least parts of it have been; though I would have to defer to someone better informed in Islamic theology on which parts have been corrupted.

And Jesus was certainly less peace loving than someone like Ghandi, given Jesus's comments in Luke 19:27 on those who rejected their 'rightful ruler' deserving to be killed, even if it was supposedly metaphorical.

 

[F0uad]

First of all muslims do not belief its either Jesus(p) or Mohammed(saws) but both, we are forbidden to equal prophets and messengers or judge them according what mohammed(saws) said in the hadiths, and i would say that Mohammed(saws)'s time is very different then the time of Jesus(p) and different things happened.

I cannot quote the Quran because those are not the word of Mohammed(saws) but of god if you want me to quote the word of God just ask me and i will give you a bigger list so i will quote directly from the sayings of Mohammed(saws) hadiths:

“There was a merchant who would lend to the people, and whenever his debtor was in difficult circumstances, he would say to his employees, ‘Forgive him so that God may forgive us.’ So, God forgave him.”
——— Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Hadith 292.

“Make your character good for the people.“
——— Prophet Muhammad (s) as narrated Al-Muwatta, Volume 47, Hadith 1


The Prophet Muhammad (s) said: “Do not turn away a poor man…even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you…God will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection.”
——— Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1376.


“Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately and know that your deeds will not make you enter Paradise, and that the most beloved deed to Allah’s is the most regular and constant even though it were little.”
——— Prophet Muhammad (s) as narrated by A’isha (ra) in Sahih Bukhari, vol. 8, hadith 471


The Prophet Muhammad (s) said: ““It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing.”
——— Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1011.


The Prophet Muhammad (s) said: “Indeed, an ignorant man who is generous is dearer to God than a worshipper who is miserly.”
——— Al-Tirmidhi: Hadith 580.


The Prophet Muhammad (s) said, “None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”
——— Bukhari and Muslim.


The Prophet Muhammad (s) said: “He will not enter Paradise whose neighbour is not secure from his wrongful conduct.“
——— Sahih Muslim, Hadith 15.


The Prophet Muhammad (s) said: “Anybody who believes in Allah and the Last Day should not harm his neighbor, and anybody who believes in Allah and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously, and anybody who believes in Allah and the Last Day should talk what is good or keep quiet (i.e. abstain from all kinds of evil and dirty talk).“
——— Narrated by Abu Hurayrah, Sahih Al Bukhari, Vol: 8 Hadith 47.


The Prophet Muhammad (s) said: “There is reward for kindness to every living thing.”
——— Bukhari and Muslim.


The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “(God) has revealed to me that you should adopt humility so that no one oppresses another.”
——— Riyadh-us-Salaheen, Hadith 1589.




And the list goes on and on.... but you get the point we muslims can agree on Matthew 38-48 but would disagree with turning the cheek.
If someone wants to kill you, are you just going to stand and do nothing, no we in islam are told to defend ourself by any means necessary. And some more verses that i cannot fully agree on.




I would ask you the same thing if Christians are Christians(Follower of jesus''p'') why aren't those things taught in most of the churches...


Muslims do not belief that the Entire book is corrupted but most of them, heck if you want to start a different topic about it by my quest but you will have to have some real indebted knowledge about history before claiming they are not.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Forgive me for phrasing my original question incorrectly. Does the Koran actually contain teachings worthy of supplanting Jesus' teachings? I'd like to hear a little more than "it does because God says so." I want to actually judge the content of the message by its fruit.

 

[Bismillah]

Yes, for one it reversed polytheistic tendencies and reestablished the transcendence and uniqueness of Allah.

 

[kai]

Forgive me for phrasing my original question incorrectly. Does the Koran actually contain teachings worthy of supplanting Jesus' teachings? I'd like to hear a little more than "it does because God says so." I want to actually judge the content of the message by its fruit.

May i suggest you read the Quran and actually judge the content of the message by its fruit.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

May i suggest you read the Quran and actually judge the content of the message by its fruit.

I've read thoroughly certain parts and skimmed through others. I'm not sure I could survive exploring it again as it's by far the most incoherent thing I've read since proofreading some of my classmates' English papers. What I saw were teachings that can't hold a candle to Jesus when it comes to promoting peace. If anything, when it came to instructions on how to handle war, the Koran seemed more like the Old Testament than the new era introduced by Jesus.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

That would be because the 'word' each was entrusted with was different, there seems to be significant overlap yes, but they are prophets intended for different people at a different time in different circumstances.

 

[kai]

I've read thoroughly certain parts and skimmed through others. I'm not sure I could survive exploring it again as it's by far the most incoherent book I've ever read that is actually reknown. What I saw were teachings that can't hold a candle to Jesus when it comes to promoting peace. If anything, when it came to instructions on how to handle war, the Koran seemed more like the Old Testament than the new era introduced by Jesus.

I think you are supposed to take the Injeel into account when looking at Islam.

I dont know about Jesus introducing a new era? Maybe a splinter group of Judaism? but Pauline Christianity certainly did.

 

[ankarali]

According to islam at least the half of the Bible is corrupted so the Bible is not a ressource for us but we believe Jesus is between the great prophets and he will come to the world again at the end of the time and he will kill Anti-Christ (Atheism).

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Isn't the antichrist supposed to be one person in Islam?

I mean I have heard interpretations about atheism (and non abrahamic faiths) and western countries being the antichrist; however the most consistent and widespread (though perhaps no more credible) interpretation I have seen is that the anti-christ would be a single person

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Muslims do not belief that the Entire book is corrupted but most of them, heck if you want to start a different topic about it by my quest but you will have to have some real indebted knowledge about history before claiming they are not.

Do you know anything about the existing ancient copies of the NT that we do actually have from all over the ancient world, some of which written from within 150-200 years after the crucifixion? There are thousands of fragments FWIW. Guess what? They all say pretty much say the same thing. With such a vast number of fragments from all over the ancient world scholars are able to piece together what the original looked like. I've heard even Muslim scholars say that the claim of a literal corruption of the texts makes no sense and that the only corruption that could possibly take place is a corruption of the meaning.

 

[ankarali]

There are two anti-Christ, one is a man, he will appear between muslims and he will say he is a muslim but he will do many things against islam, his name is ''Sufyan''


but the Big Anti-Christ, he is not a man but it is a philosophy and to kill it muslims and Christians will unify their force.

Here a reading passage about it


''The Mahdi's luminous community will repair the destruction of the innovative regime of the secret society of the Sufyan, and will restore the Prophet's glorious Sunna. That is to say, the secret society of the Sufyan will try to destry the Shari'a of Muhammad (PBUH) in the World of Islam with the intention of denying his Prophethood, and will be killed and routed by the miraculous immaterial sword of the Mahdi's community.
Moreover, in the world of humanity, the secret society of the Anti-Christ (Dajjal) will overturn civilization and subvert all mankind's sacred matters, with the intention of denying the Godhead. A zealous and self-sacrificing community known as a Christian community but worhy of being called "Muslim Christians," will the reality of Islam, and will kill and rout that society of the Anti-Christ (Dajjal), thus saving humanity from atheism.
This important mystery is very lengthy. Since we have discussed it briefly in other places, here we make do with this indication.
www.saidnur.com/en/index.htm

 

[kai]

Do you know anything about the existing ancient copies of the NT that we do actually have from all over the ancient world, some of which written from within 150-200 years after the crucifixion? There are thousands of fragments FWI.. Guess what? They all say pretty much say the same thing. With such a vast number of fragments from all over the ancient

world scholars are able to piece together what the original looked like

. I've heard even Muslim scholars say that the claim of a literal corruption of the texts makes no sense and that the only corruption that could possibly take place is a corruption of the meaning.

Original what? you do know that the bible is a collection of pieces? and there is no "common" version, not all bibles contain the same pieces, depending on denomination.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Original what? you do know that the bible is a collection of pieces? and there is no "common" version, not all bibles contain the same pieces, depending on denomination.

NT was written in Greek of which there are around 5000 copies. Naturally there are far more in Latin and other languages.

 

[kai]

NT was written in Greek of which there are around 5000 copies. Naturally there are far more in Latin and other languages.

Also a collection of "pieces" An anthology.

 

[F0uad]

Do you know anything about the existing ancient copies of the NT that we do actually have from all over the ancient world, some of which written from within 150-200 years after the crucifixion? There are thousands of fragments FWIW. Guess what? They all say pretty much say the same thing. With such a vast number of fragments from all over the ancient world scholars are able to piece together what the original looked like. I've heard even Muslim scholars say that the claim of a literal corruption of the texts makes no sense and that the only corruption that could possibly take place is a corruption of the meaning.

First of all there are not that ''Many'' and lets for example say there are records that someone was ''crucified'' does that mean it was Jesus(p) No...

I never heard any Muslim Scholar say that i heard many Western Scholars agreeing that the scriptures have been altered and corrupted even Historians do not use the Bible as a Historical Scripture... i wonder why? Because there are many events described that contradict one and each other.

Keep in mind that the ''Gospels'' you uphold are 60/200years after Jesus(p) in Greek while Jesus(p) never spoke or knew Greek, it looks more like that Jews traditions have altered the things.

If there is proof that some things have been altered are you willing to dismiss the whole Bible please answer with a yes or no.

 

[F0uad]

To make ankarali judgement story a little shorter:

the Anti-Christ is one person not two, he will be leading a army of Unbelievers (maybe atheist..) and Devil-worshippers.

Then the Mahdi will come and purify the Muslims countries and bring them under one Banner, then the Anti-Christ and Mahdi will go to battle (with there armies) one army of Atheist/Devil-worshippers against one army of Muslims/Christians and the Anti-Christ will be stronger, but then the Messiah will return ''Jesus(p)'' to destroy all evil things.

 

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

Matthew:
47While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48Now he who was betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, “Whomever I kiss, He is the one; seize Him.” 49Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. 50And Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.
51And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54“How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”



I'd argue this is the most peace loving man the world has ever known. What possible reason is good enough for us to ignore such teachings? If Muslims truly have respect of Jesus and believe he's a great prophet, why aren't these teachings found in mosques all over the world? Do you really believe such teachings are the result of corruption?

My son... Wasn't Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the one who told them to buy swords and bring the swords with them in the first place? Didn't he also tell them to sell their belongings and clothes if they have no money to buy swords so that they can make money and buy some? I think you need to actually read the Bible

But when he prolly told them to stop because he realized that his disciples might get killed because they were outnumbered.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." Matthew 5:9

"Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy." Matthew 5:7

"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5

"In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

Islam agrees with all of this except for the 'children of God' part and we have similar statements in our texts.

But I don't think matt 7:12 really applies anymore, or at least for being used by Christians, because Christians say that the law and the prophets have been discarded and that we should not follow them b/c it won't do us any good and that it was a curse on the people. Even though Jesus (peace be upon him) says otherwise in matt 5:17-20.

Matthew:

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40“If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41“Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42“Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Every messenger was either sent with set of new laws for his people or confirming the old laws. In this case, Jesus (peace be upon him) was mostly confirming the old law but also came to make some things permissible that were forbidden before.

It depends on the people, what is best for them and at the time. The Jews' hearts were hardened and they followed the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit. That is why Jesus (peace be upon him) came with this more easier and loose way of living and doing things. So they get into the spirit + letter of law, not just one.

Those other two were extremes. Now prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came with the middle path. It was many constricting laws at first for a while and then a more relaxed way. The prophets came with what was best for the people at the time. Now this 'version' of Islam is for all of mankind and lasting till Judgement Day. All of the other laws and revelations (whether corrupted or not) are abrogated by this Shari'ah and it is the one best for the people of our time.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

My son... Wasn't Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the one who told them to buy swords and bring the swords with them in the first place? Didn't he also tell them to sell their belongings and clothes if they have no money to buy swords so that they can make money and buy some? I think you need to actually read the Bible

.

You mean Luke 22?

36And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37“For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” 38They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”


Is he really going to lead a revolution with two swords? That kind of an army would have two swords? I'm putting my money on those swords being used to kill wild animals found on their journey more than people. This is all just diverting attention from Mohammed who was a genuine warrior.