Muslims leaving Islam for more reasoned beliefs/non-beliefs

[tumbleweed41]

Not that it really matters, other than my own personal hope for a more reasoned society.
But all these "So-and-So converts to Islam" threads are as equally trivial.


Ibn Warraq
Ali Sina
Parvin Darabi
Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Dutch feminist and politician
Anwar Sheikh
Mark A Gabriel
Ampbreia
Wafa Sultan - Arab American psychiatrist
Salman Rushdie - Indian Born British Writer
Taslima Nasrin
Apostates of Islam - We left Islam
Index
ISLAMIC REFORMATION MOVEMENT

 

[Caladan]

But all these "So-and-So converts to Islam" threads are as equally trivial.

It is the propaganda of the defeated. Islam today is the most ridiculed religion in the world. its becoming outlawed throughout Europe, the lands of Islam are invaded by American forces, and its own adherents kill each other in higher rates than any western troop does.

 

[Bismillah]

I would hardly call Islam defeated.

 

[Caladan]

I would hardly call Islam defeated.

enlighten me. what is Islam achieving on the world stage? in international politics? in the welfare of the citizens in Islamic land, in scientific landmarks?

 

[beenie]

it is a sad state of affairs right now.
Muslims around the world are not following the creed as it is designed to be followed. they refuse to modernize and adapt to modernity. i am going to be bashed by other Muslims for saying this, but it's the truth. i see it every day; people judging others on outward appearances...no one is "good enough"...they're cheating their own people (and these are who we are to befriend)...they're stealing, lying, manipulating Shariah law to suit their political and dominating purposes...

it's a disaster right now. NOT the religion, its people. i used to say that you don't judge a religion by its people, but that's an insider looking out. as an outsider, what other example to they have?

if you don't know good, honest, humble, loving, tolerant Muslims (they ARE out there, in the MILLIONS, by the way)...and what you DO see is shown on CNN, FOX, etc., and if what you DO see is extremism eating at the core of Islam, then why on earth would anyone take Islam seriously?

for G-d's sake, we have fatwas in Saudi telling us we can't take flowers to the sick, and that we can't be "the same kind of friends" with non-Muslims as we can be with Muslims...we have religious police (albeit a small minority) hitting women for not covering "properly" and men for not having "a proper Shar'i beard. did Allah ordain this? NO. did our Prophet ordain the religious police to do these acts? NO. where did this nonsense come from? what has happened to us as a practicing people? why are we so focused on what others do and NOT on ourselves and setting a good example?

what do we expect non-Muslims to find appealing about our religion when they see misogyny, hatred for everyone outside of Islam, hatred for many WITHIN Islam, etc.? our religion does not teach these things, yet it's the most prevalent problem out there.

it's time for Muslims around the world to WAKE UP and realize that the rest of the world won't be bullied into accepting Islam as a respectable religion, let along THE religion...if we don't accept modernity (within certain boundaries as all religions have and need boundaries)...and adapt accordingly.

/rant

 

[beenie]

I would hardly call Islam defeated.

it's NOT defeated, but we are certainly in a defensive position rather than a proactive one right now for all (and more) of the reasons i listed.

it's heart-breaking.

yesterday i watched "Journey to Mecca" and i saw how pure and honest those people were back in those days...no judgment, just pure love for God and His creation. we've given way to nastiness and judging. anyone who doesn't see this is burying their head in the proverbial sand.

 

[Bismillah]

what is Islam achieving on the world stage? in international politics? in the welfare of the citizens in Islamic land, in scientific landmarks?

Enlighten me on how this equates with defeated? I could easily replace Islam and insert Medieval Europe and the statement would be just as true. What do you think constitutes "defeat" because none of your statements mean that something is "defeated".

The biggest thing Islam has going for it is oil.

 

[beenie]

enlighten me. what is Islam achieving on the world stage? in international politics? in the welfare of the citizens in Islamic land, in scientific landmarks?

well, you'll have to admit to a certain extent that outside forces are playing a role here...it's not in the world's "best interest" to have a united Middle East.

i don't place blame entirely on others though, as you can easily read in my post above. most of it is self-designed corruption and illiteracy from WITHIN.

 

[Caladan]

ssainu,

don't beat yourself up about it. sometimes people outgrow their religion, it happens. I also think you need to be realistic, masses of people will always make their religion look absurd in the eyes of other cultures, I've met plenty of decent Muslims, but Im more interested in their them as other men or women than their faith.

 

[tumbleweed41]

it is a sad state of affairs right now.
Muslims around the world are not following the creed as it is designed to be followed. they refuse to modernize and adapt to modernity. i am going to be bashed by other Muslims for saying this, but it's the truth. i see it every day; people judging others on outward appearances...no one is "good enough"...they're cheating their own people (and these are who we are to befriend)...they're stealing, lying, manipulating Shariah law to suit their political and dominating purposes...

it's a disaster right now. NOT the religion, its people. i used to say that you don't judge a religion by its people, but that's an insider looking out. as an outsider, what other example to they have?

if you don't know good, honest, humble, loving, tolerant Muslims (they ARE out there, in the MILLIONS, by the way)...and what you DO see is shown on CNN, FOX, etc., and if what you DO see is extremism eating at the core of Islam, then why on earth would anyone take Islam seriously?

for G-d's sake, we have fatwas in Saudi telling us we can't take flowers to the sick, and that we can't be "the same kind of friends" with non-Muslims as we can be with Muslims...we have religious police (albeit a small minority) hitting women for not covering "properly" and men for not having "a proper Shar'i beard. did Allah ordain this? NO. did our Prophet ordain the religious police to do these acts? NO. where did this nonsense come from? what has happened to us as a practicing people? why are we so focused on what others do and NOT on ourselves and setting a good example?

what do we expect non-Muslims to find appealing about our religion when they see misogyny, hatred for everyone outside of Islam, hatred for many WITHIN Islam, etc.? our religion does not teach these things, yet it's the most prevalent problem out there.

it's time for Muslims around the world to WAKE UP and realize that the rest of the world won't be bullied into accepting Islam as a respectable religion, let along THE religion...if we don't accept modernity (within certain boundaries as all religions have and need boundaries)...and adapt accordingly.

/rant

Very well said.
At one time, Islam was represented by some of the most forward thinking and analytical minds in the world.
Today Islam is represented by many of the most repressive and barbaric adherants who make their voices known above the majority.

 

[Sajdah]

Not that it really matters, other than my own personal hope for a more reasoned society.

None of the names you mentioned had any weight in Islam ....Islam doesn't need them, so congratulations for taking them!!
At the same time most of the converts to Islam are scientists, scholar, and successful persons in their societies!

But all these "So-and-So converts to Islam" threads are as equally trivial.

I think you can ask the Mods to put all the "converts to Islam" threads together in one thread if it bothers you so much!

 

[Caladan]

Enlighten me on how this equates with defeated? I could easily replace Islam and insert Medieval Europe and the statement would be just as true.

Did you actually say that? the middle ages are long gone from Europe, Europeans lead in the academy and in science together with the North Americans and other societies, Europeans have a welfare that Muslims are flocking to enjoy, leaving their Islamic home lands far behind.

What do you think constitutes "defeat" because none of your statements mean that something is "defeated".

Islamic states have been militarily defeated, occupied, Muslims are oppressed throughout their lands, there is no major scientific progress in many of the Islamic lands, Im asking you for an example of Islam's achievements in the world, and you haven't given me any.

The biggest thing Islam has going for it is oil.

haha exactly, and its a treasure of nature, not of Islam! and ironically the biggest curse of the Arabs.

 

[beenie]

ssainu,

don't beat yourself up about it. sometimes people outgrow their religion, it happens. I also think you need to be realistic, masses of people will always look their religion absurd in the eyes of other cultures, I've met plenty of decent Muslims, but Im more interested in their them as other men or women than their faith.

you're right, and i also look beyond faith and wish to know people for who they are as well. faith rarely comes up in conversations...and when it does, we either agree or disagree...but they are still my friends and i'm very intrigued by our differences.

you're also correct that some people simply outgrow their faith or find one huge aspect of it they can't swallow.

None of the names you mentioned had any weight in Islam ....Islam doesn't need them, so congratulations for taking them!!
At the same time most of the converts to Islam are scientists, scholar, and successful persons in their societies!

this is where i differ, sister. i think every person DOES matter, and i feel sad when i read those stories of those who left Islam. most of them are because of a bad experience, and i wish i could help them somehow rather than turn them out. they may not come back to Islam, but they may regain some respect for it again.

 

[tumbleweed41]

None of the names you mentioned had any weight in Islam ....Islam doesn't need them, so congratulations for taking them!!

I didn't "take" anyone. Of course they have no "weight" in Islam, they are apostates.

At the same time most of the converts to Islam are scientists, scholar, and successful persons in their societies!

Do you have accurate statistics to show this? Or are you relying on the posts here in RF?
You say "most of the converts to Islam", are you disregarding those whose lives are not worthy of the "coverts to Islam" threads?

I think you can ask the Mods to put all the "converts to Islam" threads together in one thread if it bothers you so much!

I said they are trivial, not that they bother me.

 

[Autodidact]

Enlighten me on how this equates with defeated? I could easily replace Islam and insert Medieval Europe and the statement would be just as true. What do you think constitutes "defeat" because none of your statements mean that something is "defeated".

This is true. Medieval Europe, unlike Islam, went through the Enlightenment. If Islam goes through an Enlightenment and survives, it may one day thrive again.

The biggest thing Islam has going for it is oil.

Exactly. Sad, no?

 

[Autodidact]

None of the names you mentioned had any weight in Islam ....Islam doesn't need them, so congratulations for taking them!!
At the same time most of the converts to Islam are scientists, scholar, and successful persons in their societies!

Really? Can you name 100 scientists who have converted to Islam? 10?

 

[Bismillah]

Did you actually say that? the middle ages are long gone from Europe, Europeans lead in the academy and in science together with the North Americans and other societies, Europeans have a welfare that Muslims are flocking to enjoy, leaving their Islamic home lands far behind.

Don't be foolish. It doesn't matter how long ago the Medieval ages were, it is an example that your conditions for "defeat" are wrong. It's obvious that in the short term Islam is screwed. But you telling me that Islam is too much to bear

Islamic states have been militarily defeated, occupied, Muslims are oppressed throughout their lands, there is no major scientific progress in many of the Islamic lands, Im asking you for an example of Islam's achievements in the world, and you haven't given me any.

Why don't you reread what I actually posted and what you presumed I posted.

haha exactly, and its a treasure of nature, not of Islam! and ironically the biggest curse of the Arabs.

Agreed.

 

[tumbleweed41]

None of the names you mentioned had any weight in Islam ....Islam doesn't need them, so congratulations for taking them!!

this is where i differ, sister. i think every person DOES matter, and i feel sad when i read those stories of those who left Islam. most of them are because of a bad experience, and i wish i could help them somehow rather than turn them out. they may not come back to Islam, but they may regain some respect for it again.

Perfect example of the differing trains of thought in a single belief.

One has no care for those who leave, the other wishes to help and heal even those who do not come back to Islam.

Next time I hear "Islam means Peace", I will try to think of Ssainhu's words rather than Sajdah's.

Unfortunately, it is the voices of those like Sajdah's that get the most press.

 

[Bismillah]

This is true. Medieval Europe, unlike Islam, went through the Enlightenment. If Islam goes through an Enlightenment and survives, it may one day thrive again.

I believe that a wide scale revolution throughout the Muslim world is approaching.

Exactly. Sad, no?

It's not a coincidence that I despise most oil wealth nations.

 

[Caladan]

Don't be foolish. It doesn't matter how long ago the Medieval ages were, it is an example that your conditions for "defeat" are wrong. It's obvious that in the short term Islam is screwed. But you telling me that Islam is too much to bear

You are completely irrational i'm afraid, Islam has been 'screwed' as you say in the long term ad infinitum, Islamic lands will need thousands of years to recover, if ever, and there is a serious doubt about that.

Why don't you reread what I actually posted and what you presumed I posted.

So nu... my question is really simple, im asking for physical achievements that come from Islamic lands. to quote Vizzini.. 'I'm waiting!'