Muslims leaving Islam for more reasoned beliefs/non-beliefs

[Caladan]

I was talking about our past to prove to you that Islam isn't defeated, as we had problems in the past, and they were solved, we will do it in our present Insha'Allah, perhaps it will take some time, but it will occur....I'm not saying we are dreaming of our past and forgetting our recent status...No, we are just learning from our past.....

If Muslims are learning from their past it can be a positive thing, but I personally believe it is crucial for Muslims to take a look at at their societies and the way they practice Islam today. in the past Islamic men were willing to explore the world over and not stay stuck in the mud of stubborn tribal tradition. today many Muslims think it is tradition alone which will bring them a solution to the changing times.

You are/were a jew and I think you understand very well the importance of history to nations, who has no past, has no present, and will have no future (as I believe)!!

You are of course right, however, one of the strength of the Jews is to adapt, and adopt the future, many Jews are highly 'assimilated' people, they adopt their tradition to the political atmosphere around them.

You tell me which battle? You're constantly saying "Islam is defeated" then there should be a battle, and I'm telling you whatever battle Islam is in right now (religiously, politically...), it isn't ended yet...

So tell me, where is Islam standing on the chess board? what is the planned move? is Islam in a stalemate? does it have a plan to move a significant piece on the strategic level?

LOL, I'm well-aware that the non-believer I'm talking to is not any one, he claimed that he has read the Qur'an twice (as I remember), so providing him only three verses to prove to him that "their religion is not handicapping them" will not be a problem to him, but it really was!!!

Yes, because most people on this forum, expect more than scriptures being quoted to them, we want to hear what the people themselves think.

Like what exactly?

Where to begin? the human rights record in many Islamic lands is terrible, many societies have had tremendous religious reforms, their social structure has been inventing itself, new social and political platforms have taken place, while tradition has been brought to a completely new light, and pretty much has been brought into new proportions. people have been desiring to look into the naturalistic prospects of science in the face of their centuries old traditions, and have been willing to adopt their traditions or let go of them completely for the progress which the new scientific revelations brought with them, many societies have never looked back since, they have developed space programs, the research of 'god free' evolutionary biological fields, etc. etc.

 

[Faithfreedom]

It is this irrational fundamentalism that is holding the Middle East back from regaining it's former glory.

This "fundamentalism" is not irrational. It is rooted/carved in stone in the Quran and the Hadieth. No matter how you spin it, the brand of Islam that comes out is always lame. (The best of which imo is Sufism - the most peaceful brand around). Any progressive Islamic political party will sooner or later be brought to their knees by these "fundamentalists" simply because they have the Quran on their side. Whereas Christian Political Parties can easily be put in their place by showing them that the bible is not on their side on matters of politics.

I agree that these countries need to shake off these fundamentalist and regressive ideals and join the modern world.

They cannot do that unless they leave Islam.

It is not about their religion, it is about how their religion is hijacked by fundamentalists.

It is about their religion. Fundamentalists did not hijack it. The moderate muslims hijacked real Islam and dilute it (thank God!).
The Islam that conquered right up to Spain is the real Islam.

I also think we need to look at this example as a warning when regressive fundamental Christians attempt to push their theocratic ideals onto Western Society.

These Christians are the ones that hijacked Christianity. Push comes to shove, they can never proof that the bible allows for it. The killing clause is not in the New Testament. Worse - the "Love thy enemies" clause is.

 

[Faithfreedom]

That's all I can say about this list. I have never been held back by any of this stuff. None of this stuff has held me back, in fact I believe it's essential for success in my life.

Good for you!
You must be one of those exception to the rule.
Where i am, muslims (on the whole) have always scored much below non-muslims in examinations. (Muslimahs on the whole scored much better than muslims, but not better than non-muslims. Just my emphirical observation).

Some of the industrial dragons I mentioned, have very little natural resources in their country and yet they are rich.
I would love to see muslim majority countries in the same position. This will only enrich us all. And it all starts by getting up the student's grades. (but how to do this when there are so many in a muslim's family? - resources stretched too thin - the general belief in Islam is to have as many kids as possible. But non-muslims do family planning, scrimp and save to send their kids to the best universities. Then when non-muslims prosper, the muslims will get jealous. Folks, this is a bad situation. We ALL must prosper in order to have real peace. I still maintain that Islam is holding muslims back. Thank God, some muslims are realising this and abandoning Islam.

 

[tumbleweed41]

This "fundamentalism" is not irrational. It is rooted/carved in stone in the Quran and the Hadieth. No matter how you spin it, the brand of Islam that comes out is always lame. (The best of which imo is Sufism - the most peaceful brand around). Any progressive Islamic political party will sooner or later be brought to their knees by these "fundamentalists" simply because they have the Quran on their side. Whereas Christian Political Parties can easily be put in their place by showing them that the bible is not on their side on matters of politics.

They cannot do that unless they leave Islam.

It is about their religion. Fundamentalists did not hijack it. The moderate muslims hijacked real Islam and dilute it (thank God!).
The Islam that conquered right up to Spain is the real Islam.

These Christians are the ones that hijacked Christianity. Push comes to shove, they can never proof that the bible allows for it. The killing clause is not in the New Testament. Worse - the "Love thy enemies" clause is.

You need to study a bit more about Islam.

 

[Sajdah]

If Muslims are learning from their past it can be a positive thing, but I personally believe it is crucial for Muslims to take a look at at their societies and the way they practice Islam today..

Who said that Muslims are not doing that? All knowledgeable Muslim scholars concentrate on the way Muslims practice Islam, and the problems confronting Muslim youths which lead them sometimes to deviate from their original goal which is establishing Islam correctly in their societies..

in the past Islamic men were willing to explore the world over and not stay stuck in the mud of stubborn tribal tradition. today many Muslims think it is tradition alone which will bring them a solution to the changing times.

I'm not sure of the meaning of the word "tradition" here, but if you mean specificlly "tribal tradition", I don't recall any Muslim who is educated about Islam thinks that tribal tradition will do anything to the situation we are in now...In fact such tribal tradition are causing so many damages in our societies, it is even forbidden in Islam to call for such Jahly acts which totally contradict with the teaching of Islam!

You are of course right, however, one of the strength of the Jews is to adapt, and adopt the future, many Jews are highly 'assimilated' people, they adopt their tradition to the political atmosphere around them.

I guess the word tradition here is different from the previous one! But let me tell you something, Islam is not like Judaism.... Islam is a flexible religion by itself, it suits everyone, everywhere, and every time...Of course there are basics which are constant and firm, but the branches could be submitted to the changes of time, place, including people...For instance an islamic ruling might suit Muslims of Egypt, and doesn't suit Muslims in the U.S, thus Muslims in the U.S are not as obligated to it as Muslims in Egypt!

So tell me, where is Islam standing on the chess board? what is the planned move? is Islam in a stalemate? does it have a plan to move a significant piece on the strategic level?

I don't like chess :help:

I admit that we aren't in a good condition, the Muslim nation receives so many stabs every moment.. So we need to heal that body first so as to continue the game, and if the player is so proficient, he will certainly win the game!!

In this case I need to play more chess to take part in that game,

Yes, because most people on this forum, expect more than scriptures being quoted to them, we want to hear what the people themselves think.

I'm sure that the verses I quoted convey what I felt, and thought of, sometimes non-believers need to be patient to get what the other side is implying...

Where to begin? the human rights record in many Islamic lands is terrible, many societies have had tremendous religious reforms, their social structure has been inventing itself, new social and political platforms have taken place, while tradition has been brought to a completely new light, and pretty much has been brought into new proportions. people have been desiring to look into the naturalistic prospects of science in the face of their centuries old traditions, and have been willing to adopt their traditions or let go of them completely for the progress which the new scientific revelations brought with them, many societies have never looked back since, they have developed space programs, the research of 'god free' evolutionary biological fields, etc. etc.

Look, I've pointed to the past and its glory, because I'm sure you believe that Islam is behind the backwardness in science and many fields in life in the Muslim nation, but this is absolutely wrong, you yourself said that our ancestors were willing to explore the world...etc, so why do you change your mind while talking about present? Muslims of the past were more religious than Muslims of today, Islam was the source of their progress. But now because some Muslims put Islam behind them, and just want to imitate the west, not in their scientific progress, but in their failing sides, this is the reason behind the backwardness in our societies, it is not Islam, and was never Islam. It is the unability to practice Islam correctly by current Muslims....